Upside down newt.......

[donia]

I have a very strange problem. I got this ribbed newt from a reptile rescue centre - about a year ago I got three ribbed newts from the same place and from the same batch as this one. This little one was kept back by the rescue centre, as she couldn't right herself; as in she is mostly belly up. The guy there has taken her to the vets (no solution) and has kept her for a year hoping for a cure, but nothing has come up. So he has now let me rehome her with the others she originally came with.

That's her background as far as I know it. So after a year like this, she is still alive and eating well. I've yet to see her poop, but I've had her less than a week and in a separate tank for now until she does. The water in the tank is low to try and help her stay on her front. What I'd like from you guys is some help/advice. Has anyone encountered this before? I've attached a picture to give you an idea. She's not huge like bloat and she doesn't float; she simply has difficulty positioning herself the right way up...........

Any ideas? I am at a loss!!

 

[Mark]

Wow, that's really bizarre! I've only seen balance issues like this in newts on their death bed. Perhaps it has a neurological disorder affecting balancing or maybe something structurally wrong with it making it more buoyant and therefore less stable.

Out of interest what happens if you place it in a terrestrial set-up? Can it walk and does it remain upright?

 

[donia]

I did wonder if it may be genetic? She is a very odd looking newt - her face is pointed and long, unlike any ribbed newt I've seen, maybe due to inbreeding? I have what I assume are her siblings (they all came in to the rescue together), and they are all fine......

I've not tried her in a terrestrial set-up, as ribbed newts are mostly aquatic, but that's a good question - I'll set up the tank with a land area and see if she uses that.

Thanks for the quick reply!

 

[Azhael]

If there are deformations then it´s likely to be a related problem, perhaps spinal which is causing neurological disfunctions.
Taking it out of the water and seeing if there are motor problems would indeed be a good way to check.

 

[Dreamtheory]

Keep us updated, this seems very odd, but none-the-less, interesting!

 

[JWERNER]

Wow, that's really bizarre! I've only seen balance issues like this in newts on their death bed. Perhaps it has a neurological disorder affecting balancing or maybe something structurally wrong with it making it more buoyant and therefore less stable.

Out of interest what happens if you place it in a terrestrial set-up? Can it walk and does it remain upright?

Any possibility it could have been something during metamorph stage? Poor water quality during larval stage could cause complications not?

I doubt its inbreeding as some say Amphibians really take well to such a practice ( although morally should be avoided in captivity ) and some studies link it to success in the wild.

I agree it could be something neurological. As Azhael said something wrong with the spinal region could be causing this. Look close for any kinks or bows along the spine.
How ever I do think most cases like this have been traced back to something with gastric overload. It could be suffering from a long term effect caused by serious impaction which has been relieved before it caused the animals death.

The positive side is that it is at least eating and although health is more than skin deep it appears to be healthy in at least a certain sense.

Not to sound grim but the bad part is that the animal can not tell you if its hurt.

 

[Dreamtheory]

Any possibility it could have been something during metamorph stage? Poor water quality during larval stage could cause complications not?

I doubt its inbreeding as some say Amphibians really take well to such a practice ( although morally should be avoided in captivity ) and some studies link it to success in the wild.

I agree it could be something neurological. As Azhael said something wrong with the spinal region could be causing this. Look close for any kinks or bows along the spine.
How ever I do think most cases like this have been traced back to something with gastric overload. It could be suffering from a long term effect caused by serious impaction which has been relieved before it caused the animals death.

The positive side is that it is at least eating and although health is more than skin deep it appears to be healthy in at least a certain sense.

Not to sound grim but the bad part is that the animal can not tell you if its hurt.

I believe such things would have been noticed by the vet. He/she mentioned how that guy took it to the vet and nothing was discovered...

Maybe this little newt is related to a turtle ... lol

 

[JWERNER]

I believe such things would have been noticed by the vet. He/she mentioned how that guy took it to the vet and nothing was discovered...

Maybe this little newt is related to a turtle ... lol

You would be surprised at how many vets know nothing about Reptiles and Amphibians. Primarily Amphibians. Just a thought:happy:.

Might I add that an impaction that causes this gastric overload is not do to common known impactions such as gravel or sand. They are do to over feeding certain foods that aren't as easily digestible such as foods like inverts that have a harder exoskeleton and those that are high in protein. The food items decay before they can be digested and its a more known problem with cold blooded animals that rely on temperatures to digest foods as well. With cold blooded animals like Amphibians that desire cooler temps to begin with crickets and mealworms are usually the number one suspects.

 

[Jan]

You would be surprised at how many vets know nothing about Reptiles and Amphibians. Primarily Amphibians. Just a thought:happy:.

Might I add that an impaction that causes this gastric overload is not do to common known impactions such as gravel or sand. They are do to over feeding certain foods that aren't as easily digestible such as foods like inverts that have a harder exoskeleton and those that are high in protein. The food items decay before they can be digested and its a more known problem with cold blooded animals that rely on temperatures to digest foods as well. With cold blooded animals like Amphibians that desire cooler temps to begin with crickets and mealworms are usually the number one suspects.

I do not want to get so far off-topic in this thread, but as a point of clarification, gastric overload can occur with any food source, is an acute situation, results from frenetic feeding behavior leading to excessive intake - result is circulatory compromise secondary to a grossly distended stomach, shock and generally death if not treated emergently. In this situation, the large amount of ingesta overwhelms the natural gastrointestinal tract functioning.

In the functional GI tract, ingestion of non-digestible invertebrate parts (e.g., cricket heads, hard chitinous exoskeletons, etc.) will pass normally into the feces. Again, if acute ingestion is not excessive.

'Over feeding' therefore is ambiguous....at 'one sitting' so to speak versus a food item(s) used chronically. As an example, 3-4 large crickets fed 3 times a week chronically to a 10-13 inch salamander does not pose a problem from non-digestible parts. I would venture to guess, however, that in this same animal acute ingestion of 20 large earthworms would be problematic.

 

[JWERNER]

I do not want to get so far off-topic in this thread, but as a point of clarification, gastric overload can occur with any food source, is an acute situation, results from frenetic feeding behavior leading to excessive intake - result is circulatory compromise secondary to a grossly distended stomach, shock and generally death if not treated emergently. In this situation, the large amount of ingesta overwhelms the natural gastrointestinal tract functioning.

In the functional GI tract, ingestion of non-digestible invertebrate parts (e.g., cricket heads, hard chitinous exoskeletons, etc.) will pass normally into the feces. Again, if acute ingestion is not excessive.

'Over feeding' therefore is ambiguous....at 'one sitting' so to speak versus a food item(s) used chronically. As an example, 3-4 large crickets fed 3 times a week chronically to a 10-13 inch salamander does not pose a problem from non-digestible parts. I would venture to guess, however, that in this same animal acute ingestion of 20 large earthworms would be problematic.

Your staying on topic IMO!

Over feeding food items like crickets and meal worms in one sitting is what I was referring to as the most likely and most commonly proved culprit. You are correct about earth worms posing the same risk but its not anywhere near as common of a case and I was being short.

Where I have been aware of GO this is the site I used as a reference to quickly jog my memory on the matter.

Amphibian Articles - Overview of Amphibian Illnesses

Gastric overload occurs when amphibians consume way too much food at one time, or large food items, and results in decreased inspiratory volume. The expanded stomach can create a strain on the circulatory system, causing hypoxia (O2 deficiency), and hypercarbia (excess CO2), as the systemic veins are compressed. Severe cases result in shock, and usually death within a few hours. If the specimen does survive the physical stresses involved, there is a risk of poison from toxins associated with putrefying food items in the gut.

Now it has also been made apparent to me in the past that to many foods that contain to high a protein level could cause similar complications over time such as constipation leading to GO as well.

In short I feel we are both correct, not?:happy:

 

[pete]

How animals determine their sense of balance is an interesting one. I don't know how amphibians do it, but I think there have been an occasional thread on this forum with caudates that swim upside-down. So maybe its relatively easy to disturb this mechanism. I think there was an axolotl and a siren that survived quite well in this state that come to mind, perhaps you could search around for the threads on them.

I'm sure it could arise from a number of things from environmental trauma to genetics. Ultimately, if it's survived for a year upside-down and is otherwise healthy and eating. You may just have to be content to have an upside-down newt. If it perceives that it is right-side up, and if you try to force him the other direction, I'd imagine that might even be stressful for it. I think observation of its behavior may help you best determine how to care for it. Keep us posted. It's an interesting case.

 

[donia]

Thank you for all the replies - there are some interesting points being made that have got me thinking! I am in the process of setting up a terrestrial tank, but would like to have most of it aquatic, since she is a big girl. I did take her out of the water and pop her on a surface right side up, and she squirmed until she was upside down again, so maybe her sense of balance has been affected somehow?? I've also noticed that she is usually in a curled position and that it is always on the same side - her tail is always curved to her right side. I assume that this is because she has been in this position for so long that her body has physically changed to adapt to this change.

I don't know what she was fed before coming to me - it is possible mealworms were given to her, since she was in a reptile rescue centre, but with me she is now on mostly earthworms, witrh some frozen bloodworm and tubifex cubes. I also give my newts Reptomin on occasion, although she has not yet had any.

Anyway, I noticed twice today she was on her front, although would later be on her back again! Hopefully this is a sign of recovery from whatever is wrong with her!

 

[donia]

Just a quick update. I tried upside-down-newt in a terrestrial plastic tub with a large water area, but she just stayed in the water. The water was shallow, so she managed to keep herself upright. When placing her on land, she would squirm until she was upside down again, squirm a bit more, then give up. I thought this was probably too stressful for her, so popped her back in the water.

Anyway, since then I have moved home and acquired a conservatory. I placed the main newt tank in the conservatory temporarily, and noticed that upside-down-newt was no longer floating like she did on occasion before. From this, I assumed the much lower temperature had some sort of an effect on my girl. For quite a while she also managed to stay on her front, but that has changed again. So, I will be keeping the tank in the conservatory this year and monitoring upside-down-newt with temperature changes. The temperature didn't go below 4 degC, even when it snowed those two times last year, so I think this could work. My Anubias died though.......

 

[RobM]

Sorry to hear about your Anubias.
Please keep us posted about the effects of colder temperature, that could be really interesting.