Tylototriton asperrimus

[michael]

I purchased these at the Hamburg, Pa. show last week. Are they Tylototriton asperrimus?
Thanks
Michael

 

[freves]

They look like my wenxianensis...but I have always had a difficult time differentiating the two.

 

[FrogEyes]

I would say...
NOT - T.dabienicus, T.wenxianensis, T.broadoridgus, T.vietnamensis, T.ziegleri, or T.hainanensis
Probably not T.lizhenchangi
Which leaves the sister species T.notialis and T.asperrimus.

The original diagnostic characters of T.notialis don't work, and the diagnosis of T.lizhenchangi doesn't compare to other Yaotriton. Your best bet will be to dig through the description of T.ziegleri, since the latter includes all species in the analysis. I have not yet had time to compile the relevant data, but I do have the paper.

 

[Coastal Groovin]

I'm going with T.asperrimus. I have to call mine something....lol.

 

[eljorgo]

Best bet for me would be certainly T.wenxianensis or T.lizhenchangi

 

[FrogEyes]

Best bet for me would be certainly T.wenxianensis or T.lizhenchangi

T.wenxianensis lacks distinct rib nodules, whereas these animals possess them.
Most of the diagnostic features of T.lizhenchangi can't be observed from the photos, and I'm not yet sure if or how the others actually distinguish it from T.notialis and T.asperrimus (for instance, all three may have red on the parotids, and all three have prominent nodules). I wouldn't rule out that ID, I'm just not as confidant which it would be.

 

[TylototritonGuy]

I personally would say Tylototriton asperrimus. Really doesn't look like any true Tylototriton wenxianensis specimen that I have ever seen before lol

 

[michael]

I was surprised to see them at the show. One of the Tylototriton laid an egg for the dealer.

 

[michael]

I'll be flying to Hamburg on June 8th. I'll see if I can find one or two more.

I won't be flying but driving quickly in my minivan. I was hopping this thread would turn more into a discussion of good set ups for these instead of deteriorating.

 

[newtron]

Hi Michael, how are they doing so far? And did you get a positive identification on them>?

 

[Coastal Groovin]

I have the same animals. I'll also be looking to get 2 more at the next show. Mine are doing well eating worms and isopods. I still have my trio in a simple 50/50 land water set up. With bark hides and oak leaves over top. I'm not getting to crazy about having a 100% ID I'm 98% sure they are T. apperimus. I don't think the thread deteriorated. I just don't think there are that many people with any experience with them. I set them up 50/50 and let them make the decision on where to live. They seen to prefer land 90% of the time.

 

[michael]

I'm going with T. asperrimus too. My understanding is they spend most of the year on land and go to water in April and May to spawn. I have them set up on cocofiber and soil over pea gravel. I have a nice size water dish, dried magnolia leaves, and stacked cork bark. They are in one of my warmer salamander rooms where top temperature is about 75F.

I am feeding them medium size crickets, Belgian earthworms, and several kinds of isopods. They are eating well and show no signs of problems. I will probably pick up 1 more female on June 8th.

It will be hot at the reptile show at Hamburg, Pa. United States. If you are coming bring styrofoam boxes and ice packs for your salamander purchases. We will be rotating stock to keep things cool.

 

[michael]

The asperrimus at the show today were disappointing. They look like they hadn't eaten much since the last show. All I purchased were some fossils, plants, and isopods.

 

[loga]

T.wenxianensis lacks distinct rib nodules, whereas these animals possess them.
Most of the diagnostic features of T.lizhenchangi can't be observed from the photos, and I'm not yet sure if or how the others actually distinguish it from T.notialis and T.asperrimus (for instance, all three may have red on the parotids, and all three have prominent nodules). I wouldn't rule out that ID, I'm just not as confidant which it would be.

According to the information I can get(Colored Atlas of Chinese Amphibians and Their Distributions, 2012,12), there are six species(or some of them are subspecies) of Yaotriton in China(Y.notialis and Y. Ziegleri are what I know little about). Fankly to say, it is really difficult to distinguish them. And now I would like to introduce latest classification(As the atlas and some other papers) and discuss with you, my friends.:lol:
The six are:
Y.broadoridgus(Shen,Jiang and Mo,2012):The most significant feature is the "broad oridgus".The width approximately equal to the diameter of the eyes.unclear nodules
Y.asperrimus(Unterstein,1930)rominent and clear nodules.sharp tail(pleats significantly, sorry I don't kown how to describe in English)
Y.dabienicus(Chen, Wang and Tao,2010):unclear nodules, can't be counted,and Y.asperrimus has13-16 nodules at each side.
Y.hainanensis(Fei, Ye and Yang ,1984):clear nodules and distribution special:Hainan Island.
Y.lizhenchangi(Hou, Zhang, Jiang, Li and 吕, 2012):clear nodules(12-15), a lot have red on the parotids as FrogEyes said.Tail is not strong as Y.asperimus.
Y.wenxianensis(Fei, Ye and Yang, 1984):unclear nodules

As you can see, considering individual differences, it is very difficult to distinguish them. But in my opinion, these two Yaotritons are both Y.lizhenchangi. What you maybe don't know is that 90% or more Yaotritons you can get in China, is Y.lizhenchangi. And it is a fact that there is a great number of this species are caught and exported Illegal. Besides, these two characteristics are exactly lizhenchangi.

By the way, "T.cf.kweichowensis" has been named as "T.yangi " and "T.taliangensis" has been divided into a new genus,"Liangshantriton",so,now "Liangshantriton taliangensis" is the fashion.

 

[FrogEyes]

I have all the species descriptions, and they have been previously posted. Thanks for the update on those book contents. It's unfortunate that these new genera and subgenera, and so many other taxa, are published either in regional books or inaccessible journals.

There appears to be some value in the naming of Hynobius (Makihynobius) for a Taiwanese clade.
It's interesting to see T.shanjing retained and T.pulcherrima raised to a species. I tend to agree with elevation of Yaotriton to a full genus, given that it diverged almost as much and almost as long ago as Echinotriton.
I question the value of Liangshantriton as a taxon given the genetic data, but I can see a case for it.
I see no value at all in Tylototriton (Qiantriton) for T.kweichowensis. I don't feel this represents either a clade or a distinctive lineage relative to other Tylototriton.
I have also argued in favor of Y.dabienicus as a full species, and thus agree here as well.
Recognition of Hypselotriton solely for H.wolterstorffi, while Cynops is used for remaining Chinese species is bizarre at best, because it does not reflect their relationships. The subspecies C.orientalis qianshan will require looking into.
A lot of Chinese salamander systematics tends to rely on mitochondrial DNA, which does NOT show evolutionary lineages, nor does it accurately identify actual species clades. It identifies maternal lineages, which may include ancient one-time hybrids which passed on no other traits. Thus its use for species descriptions is weak, and as support for genera or subgenera in otherwise homogeneous groups, it may be essentially useless. That is, to be of value, it MUST be corroborated by nuclear DNA or by the physical traits which act as proxies for nuclear DNA.

Unfortunately, one cannot rely on so few traits in most cases for identifying Yaotriton species. Both Y.notialis and Y.asperrimus may have red rib nodules and red parotids, making this an unreliable diagnostic trait. Y.ziegleri can be identified by a dorsal ridge which is segmented, although I have previously posted additional traits. Among the various species, size and shape of rib nodules are also important, as are relative leg length, proportion of head length to head width, skin rugosity, and crest development.

The information in the previous post is not sufficient to distinguish Y.dabienicus from Y.wenxianensis; nor Y.asperrimus, Y.hainanensis, Y.notialis, Y.ziegleri, Y.vietnamensis, or Y.lizhenchangi from one another. The best you could do would be to identify Y.broadoridgus or separate the Y.wenxianensis complex from the remaining species. Y.ziegleri probably occurs in China as well.

To illustrate my point:

Y.broadoridgus(Shen,Jiang and Mo,2012):The most significant feature is the "broad oridgus".The width approximately equal to the diameter of the eyes.unclear nodules

This illustrates a unique trait relative to all others, and is the only one identifiable. Although it's not mentioned, the segmented dorsal ridge of Y.ziegleri is also unique.

Y.asperrimus(Unterstein,1930) prominent and clear nodules.sharp tail(pleats significantly, sorry I don't kown how to describe in English)
Y.hainanensis(Fei, Ye and Yang ,1984):clear nodules and distribution special:Hainan Island.
Y.lizhenchangi(Hou, Zhang, Jiang, Li and 吕, 2012):clear nodules(12-15), a lot have red on the parotids as FrogEyes said.Tail is not strong as Y.asperimus.

Development of the pleats in other species is not mentioned and thus can't be compared. Number of nodules strongly overlaps and is only mentioned for two species, and thus is hard to compare. Origin data is often not available, and species may occur in regions not previously known, making place of origin not very helpful in many cases. Red coloration is present in Y.asperrimus and Y.notialis, making it not especially useful. When locality data is not available, Y.ziegleri, Y.vietnamensis, and Y.notialis also must be considered, and cannot be ruled out. The tail trait is not sufficiently described or defined, and isn't mentioned for most species, which again means it doesn't help.

Y.dabienicus(Chen, Wang and Tao,2010):unclear nodules, can't be counted,and Y.asperrimus has13-16 nodules at each side.
Y.wenxianensis(Fei, Ye and Yang, 1984):unclear nodules

No distinction from one another.

The "pleats" refered to are probably the folds in the skin across the belly, which are present in some species and absent in others.

I think most of the known Yaotriton have now been described, but I know there are additional Tylototriton still to come.

 

[FrogEyes]

The book [in Chinese] can be ordered from China for about $200, and is available from NHBS in the UK for about $425. Ouch. All I can do for the forseeable future is wish for scanned pages of all the salamander sections, especially the newts.

 

[TylototritonGuy]

The book [in Chinese] can be ordered from China for about $200, and is available from NHBS in the UK for about $425. Ouch. All I can do for the forseeable future is wish for scanned pages of all the salamander sections, especially the newts.

I may just buy it in all honesty haha It's worth the money to have it than not to have it!!

I'll be flying to Hamburg on June 8th. I'll see if I can find one or two more.

I won't be flying but driving quickly in my minivan. I was hopping this thread would turn more into a discussion of good set ups for these instead of deteriorating.

Would you like me To photograph the pages about T.asperrimus in the "Threatened Newts & Salamanders - Guidelines For Conservation Breeding"? I highly recommend you purchase a copy of it, it's a very handy addition.

 

[velasco13000]

any updates on them?? are they doing well??

 

[michael]

I lost 2. 3 are doing well. I think that is not to bad for w.c.

 

[Asianherps]

As all of us agree, the morphological diagnostic characteristics of those Yaotriton species are kinda vague, so personally I doubt the validity of those species, specially the lizenchangi, unless there are further molecular or behavior evidence.

Also pulcherrima is not a species but rather a subspecies of T. shanjing, and the validity of the subspecies is doubted and changed in the most recent Tylo paper that described new species from Thailand (Although I disagree with the author and think those changes should not be made ).

Truly agree with your point that using mDNA along is not convincing in term of distinguishing species, and total evidence must be applied.