Triturus, Mesotriton, Lissotriton

Hi Wouter,

Thanks for this important info. I´ll try to know more about this.

Xavier.
 
but under the picture it names "Lissotriton" vulgaris lantzi, as triturus. what is the scientific basis of this?
 
That's great ;-), and where did they put Triturus vittatus/ophryticus...? The discussion is already old (separation of the big and small ones, and a separate group for alpestris, based on skull differences but also on ecological and breeding ecology). But it is not run yet, and I can not completely agree with that website and only trust this one: http://research.amnh.org/herpetology/amphibia/index.html
as I know it is checked by some serious scientists....
 
Looks like this scheme puts vittatus in with the big ones...

I'd also be interested to hear more about this, if anyone knows if this is based on recent publications, or is just unpblished work in progress.
 
If it is unpublished work in progress than it is strange to put it already on the website...who is responsible for this site? Perhaps they can answer the questions?
 
I have asked the question to the makers of the website, wait and see what comes out ;-)

Sergé
 
And here it is:
The American Museum accounts (http://research.amnh.org/herpetology/amphibia/index.html) are the authoritative ones that Amphibiaweb ultimately consults. However, these are done only every other year or so, and in the interim is tried to keep AmphibiaWeb up to date, especially with new species descriptions (note that there is a "counter" on the front page and it changes almost weekly) and major taxonomic changes.
The source for the taxonomic changes noticed is a new book: M. García-París, A. Montori and P. Herrero. 2004. Amphibia Lissamphibia. Fauna Iberica Vol. 24. Madrid: Museo Nacional de Ciencias Naturales and Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas. 639 pp.
The Asesor de Nomenclatura for the Fauna Iberica series is Dr. Miguel A. Alonso-Zarazaga, a member of the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature. Vol. 24 contains Apéndice 1. Nomenclatura: Lista de Sinónimos y Combinaciones, compiled by M. García-París, A. Monton and M. A. Alonso-Zarazaga. It is in this Appendix that the compilers explicitly make the taxonomic changes, stating, for example: Género Mesotriton Bolkay, 1927, and Mesotriton alpestris (Laurenti, 1768) comb. n.
Everything is done in proper form, and it is for these reasons I accept the book as authoritative and I am sure that Frost at the American Museum will also accept these findings.
Thanks for Dr. David Wake who explained this to me, and he also mentioned that further changes can be expected soon as well, so keep an eye on Amphibiaweb!

all the best, Sergé
 
Serge,
Did Dr. Wake say if these changes will be published anywhere other than in that new book? I assume its in Spanish, and it would be nice to see it in English also!
Liz
 
For scientists language is no border...
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...and the original publication is always the valid one. So scientists can always publish in their own language, but of course if you want the world to know you an better take a more wider spread language. And Spanish is pretty wide spread...
But in general what the changes are you can see on Amhibiaweb. In general it is no big change. Just that the genus names of the small bodied species have changed. There have been more changes recently (as you can see on Ampbiaweb the former species Mertensiella luschani has been placed in a own genus: Lyciasalamandra, and some former subspecies have been raised to species!
But this is done for some American species too..Ambystoam mavortioum is now a separate species from Ambystoma tigrinum.
In other groups of species (lizards, snakes) also large changes have been made last few years, mainly because of the new tool: genetics. Now not only morphological, biological and ecological characteristics but also genetics can be used to see if species are related or not.
Expect more...
 
Sergé,

is the 'Lista de Sinónimos' not just a list of synonyms, i.e. names used in
the past?

Did Dr. Wake mention whether 'Lissotriton' and 'Mesotriton' are used throughout the text of the book?
 
Hi,
yes, it is a list of synonims. But...the discussion is already going on since the first DNA analyses started as it showed that Triturus is not one group.
And no he did not mention if the names are used throughout the book.
I try to get the book...let you know more when I have it, perhaps some spanish people on this site have already purchased it??
 
I went on both of those links and none of them seems to have updated the taxonomy of salamandrina? Why's that?
 
Hello!
I've bought that book and i'm expecting to receive it by mail in a week, so i will be able to tell you what happen with those names.
I'm also going to a meeting where some of the authors of the book will be giving some conferences, so i hope i can get some answers to that question.
dino
 
Salamandrina is not in the book, it is solely about Iberia (Spain in particular). To which changes in Salamandrina do you refer Francesco, as far as I know no changes have been proposed or published yet.
 
Salamandrina has been split in to 2 species: S perspicillata and S. terdigitata
 
It's been around, but where has it been published?
To be exact I worked on the animals myself (together with Frank Pasmans) and we had contact we Italians who were doing the DNA part. On basis of the DNA alone you can not split into two species. And we have offered them information on differences in morfology in agreement that we would be included in the publication. So unless some other people have been quicker...it has not been poublished yet.
 
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