J
jesper
Guest
Anyone got some facts on this? Tim?
Maybe we can add that info to the care sheet?
Maybe we can add that info to the care sheet?
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P
paul
Guest
There is no fixed time!
I found between some days and some months.
Paul
I found between some days and some months.
Paul
J
jesper
Guest
Wow, I thought you had bred ensicauda Tim?
TJ
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Hehe, I wouldn't try to take credit for it. They do all the hard work themselves
I keep them together, and they're always breeding and laying eggs, it seems, though especially in the cooler months. I would have to isolate females from males and then reintroduce them to each other to find this kind of thing out. Maybe in the future...
I keep them together, and they're always breeding and laying eggs, it seems, though especially in the cooler months. I would have to isolate females from males and then reintroduce them to each other to find this kind of thing out. Maybe in the future...
L
leonardo
Guest
I've found that time varies from some days up to two weeks (from the start of courting)...but I have only one adult pair...
J
jennifer
Guest
Jesper, what exactly do you mean by "breeding"? First courtship activity? First deposit of a spermatophore? First uptake of a spermatophore?
I agree that there is probably no fixed time. On top of that, very few people keep the sexes separate, then mix them and observe them 24 hours per day every day. This is what would be necessary to pinpoint the actual time of uptake of a spermatophore.
I agree that there is probably no fixed time. On top of that, very few people keep the sexes separate, then mix them and observe them 24 hours per day every day. This is what would be necessary to pinpoint the actual time of uptake of a spermatophore.
J
jesper
Guest
Jen, it would be uptake of spermatophore until laying of eggs. I know it's difficult to know but I wager we got enough people that breeds ensicauda to get a rough interval at least.
Tim how low temps do they get in the cooler months? Leonardo and Paul do you cool yours or is this not necessary as with orientalis?
Tim how low temps do they get in the cooler months? Leonardo and Paul do you cool yours or is this not necessary as with orientalis?
R
ralf
Guest
Jesper,
I agree with Jen. What do you refer to as "breeding"? I also agree with Paul in that there are no fixed intervals as the matter is quite complicated and also involves the physiological status of the female.
If you refer to courtship behaviour as "breeding" you will find in the caresheet that there are several stages of courtship for this species (as well as a lot of other species). Observations of this species in the wild have also shown that only up to 2 per cent of "courtship incidents" may lead to an actual spermatophore pickup by the female and thus to a successful fertilization and egg deposition. This is because courtship can be cancelled after any of the different stages (sometimes involving sexual interference by other males)(SPARREBOOM & OTA 1995; SPARREBOOM 1996).
From my own experience and the rare occasion of actually observing a spermatophore pickup, egg deposition might even take place within the first 24 h afterwards. However, to make things even more complicated, I had depositions of fertilized eggs of females kept separately for weeks, indicating a rather long storage time for sperm in the spermatheca and raising the question of potential multiple fatherhood.
So not every wave of a male's tail may result in an egg-deposition.
I agree with Jen. What do you refer to as "breeding"? I also agree with Paul in that there are no fixed intervals as the matter is quite complicated and also involves the physiological status of the female.
If you refer to courtship behaviour as "breeding" you will find in the caresheet that there are several stages of courtship for this species (as well as a lot of other species). Observations of this species in the wild have also shown that only up to 2 per cent of "courtship incidents" may lead to an actual spermatophore pickup by the female and thus to a successful fertilization and egg deposition. This is because courtship can be cancelled after any of the different stages (sometimes involving sexual interference by other males)(SPARREBOOM & OTA 1995; SPARREBOOM 1996).
From my own experience and the rare occasion of actually observing a spermatophore pickup, egg deposition might even take place within the first 24 h afterwards. However, to make things even more complicated, I had depositions of fertilized eggs of females kept separately for weeks, indicating a rather long storage time for sperm in the spermatheca and raising the question of potential multiple fatherhood.
So not every wave of a male's tail may result in an egg-deposition.
P
paul
Guest
Jesper, in winter my orientalis have temperatures of approximate 14 °C, my ensicauda 16 °C. I think for both species it is necessary to have lower temperatures in winter than in summer.
To your courting question.
Successful means that the female takes up the sperm.
On 01.02.04 I made this pic of such an successful orientalis courting:
The first egg in this year I found in June!
In November 03 I made this pic of an ensicauda popei.
Eggs in the same month.
Paul
To your courting question.
Successful means that the female takes up the sperm.
On 01.02.04 I made this pic of such an successful orientalis courting:
The first egg in this year I found in June!
In November 03 I made this pic of an ensicauda popei.
Eggs in the same month.
Paul
E
edward
Guest
Multiple paternity is possible but in other caudates (If I remember correctly) the most offspring are fertilized by the most recent successful courtship.
In some plethodontids sperm retention is possible for months after a successful spermataphore pick up.
Ed
In some plethodontids sperm retention is possible for months after a successful spermataphore pick up.
Ed
B
benjamin
Guest
In animals like C.os which lay over a large period of time could eggs from the same mother have different fathers depending on the time at which they were laid?
J
jennifer
Guest
Paul, wow, amazing photos! I have seen spermatophores on the bottom of the tank, but never a successful uptake.
Here is one more for "collection"... this photo is by Isaiah Connell.
Here is one more for "collection"... this photo is by Isaiah Connell.
J
joseph
Guest
I think you would have to stage a successful courtship with a willing female and only one male. Having 2 makes things much more difficult for the males to plant the things and get females to walk over them.
J
joseph
Guest
Well, after watching a male for nearly 1 hour and having him deposit 2 spermatophores-none which were picked up-the above is obviously easier said than done.
J
john
Guest
I have one of Tylototriton verrucosus, but not on this computer. Interesting. Paul - I bet those photos were taken between midnight and 4 am 
. Well done - they are fantastic.
. Well done - they are fantastic.
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paul
Guest
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>John Clare (John) wrote on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 12:09 :</font>
"I have one of Tylototriton verrucosus, but not on this computer. Interesting. Paul - I bet those photos were taken between midnight and 4 am. Well done - they are fantastic."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
John, both photos were taken in the afternoon!
Paul
"I have one of Tylototriton verrucosus, but not on this computer. Interesting. Paul - I bet those photos were taken between midnight and 4 am
. Well done - they are fantastic."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> John, both photos were taken in the afternoon!
Paul
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john
Guest
That is very interesting. I've never seen spermatophore transfer in the middle of the day! But I have never seen courtship in Cynops. Were the aquariums dimly lit?
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paul
Guest
No dimly lit - neon light over the whole aquariums! But a lot of plants there, so only few light on the ground.
C. ensicauda and orientalis I often see courting the whole day; C. pyrrhogaster and cyanurus seem more to like the dusk.
But in the wild I also often saw courting Triturus vulgaris in full sunshine.
Paul
C. ensicauda and orientalis I often see courting the whole day; C. pyrrhogaster and cyanurus seem more to like the dusk.
But in the wild I also often saw courting Triturus vulgaris in full sunshine.
Paul
J
john
Guest
It's ironic, but yesterday when I got home around 5:30 pm, a pair of verrucosus were in the middle of their circular courtship dance. There were 3 or 4 spermatophores place in the circle. I have never seen that during the day time before.