Taricha Torosa And their tetrodooxin

[snussmak]

it just came to my knowledge that taricha torosa along with a fish called fugu carries one of the deadliest toxins ever known to man, tetrodotoxin (TTX). but the question is of course, are they able to produce the toxins in cativity? or do they have glands that are able to produce the toxins no matter what they consume? one 1/10 ml of the toxin is enough to kill 10 000 mice so that is kind of worrying. but i guess that a taricha owner doesn't get the toxins as long as one wash their hands/ use rubber gloves.

 

[ecoreptiles]

Hey Snussmak,

Don't worry about your English! I understood you perfectly. I don't even know a single Swedish word, even though my grandfather emigrated from there as a small boy.

Having a couple of Torosa myself, and as they are often sold in Canadian pet shops, I decide to search around and see what I could find out...
Most people seem to agree that:

• toxicity varies with age (eggs are toxic too!)
• toxicity varies with gender
• toxicity varies with location
• captive newts are NOT less toxic than wild ones
• T. granulosa IS the most toxic species in the genus

I guess these newts only exude the toxins when they're stressed.
I've never experienced anything like that with my two girls, which I handle gently and infrequently.
JUST DON'T EAT THEM!!!

On a related note, I've also heard that fire salamanders can SQUIRT their toxins at predators!
I have three fire salamanders and none of them have ever done this... although I think the female hates me, so maybe she'll work up the courage to squirt me one of these days!

Here are a few links to where I found my TTX info...
Starting with articles from THIS fabulous site (just in case you missed them)...
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/toxin.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/toxin2.shtml
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=de92e6f33fa3cb6e65e38f21a563f77d

 

[Jennewt]

Poison arrow frogs require specific prey (ants?) in order to be toxic, but I believe that there is no such requirement for Taricha. People have reported some effects from the toxin when handling captive Taricha. If you handle Taricha and then touch your eyes or an open sore, there can evidently be temporary pain, but it won't kill you. You are correct - the toxin can be avoided by washing hands after handling.

 

[Jake]

If you handle Taricha and then touch your eyes or an open sore, there can evidently be temporary pain, but it won't kill you.

I've experienced this after picking up an escaped C.pyrrhogaster, and rubbed my eye a few minutes later (not even thinking about it). When my eye began to burn I had completely forgotten about it. The best thing I can compare the burning to is getting some kind of pepper juice in your eye...not pleasant at all.

 

[snussmak]

After some additional researching I found that the toxin is proteinbased, in other words it only need proteins in order to produce more venom :S
but since I never touch my salamanders I can be at peace

 

[MRIGUY]

I have had granulosas for close to twnety years and they are handled on a regular basis as part of cleaning and general inspection of their health. I have never worn gloves though I do wash my hands both before and after handling. I would honestly be more worried about me hurting them than them me. They do not exude the toxins constantly, it is a reaction to a threat and likely controlled by their tinly little brainstem. There have been deaths associated with the toxin but all cases that I am aware of were the result of darwinism, ie some mouth breather with too many beers under his belt tries to show what a stud he is by eating one or putting it in his mouth in a stupid attempt to attract himself to a member of the opposite sex.

Use good hygene practices and common sense and there will be no problems. Additionally, if you have been hitting the booze, keep your tank lid and mouth closed.

 

[dani]

I read somewhere that the ttx increases in long term captivity of t.granulosa, im not sure if this is in wild caught individuals or captive bred. Also the location the newt was caught can effect the levels of toxin with some areas having a population with a higher potency.
didnt stop me getting a couple of t.granulosa jueveniles, their some of the most friendliest little things too, apparantly they secrete a sort of acidic smell when they secrete the toxin (when stressed) Ive never expereienced this myself however. About the guy who died from eating a newt while drunk, how dumb and cruel alcholol intoxication is hardly and excuse, suppose any species could kill if eaten though with salmonella poisoning.

 

[snussmak]

"[...]apparantly they secrete a sort of acidic smell when they secrete the toxin (when stressed) Ive never expereienced this myself however." are you sure? since the toxic fluid consists of millions upon millions of amino acids, hard to believe it smells and if it by some reasons unknown smells wouldn't the smell rather remind of raw eggs?

 

[snussmak]

found this clip on youtube, not an expert on german but it explains that the salamander carries very venomous toxins and in just a matter of minutes the frog dies and .... not gonna spoil the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aj2qcjFFXg&feature=related

 

[Otterwoman]

That video is GREAT!! I "favorited" that one!!

YouTube has so many wonderful animal videos, what a treasure!

 

[dani]

"[...]apparantly they secrete a sort of acidic smell when they secrete the toxin (when stressed) Ive never expereienced this myself however." are you sure? since the toxic fluid consists of millions upon millions of amino acids, hard to believe it smells and if it by some reasons unknown smells wouldn't the smell rather remind of raw eggs?

like i say ive never experienced this so i wouldnt know if they actually do smell and if so what it actually smells like. I read that they do this in an article online if i can find it i'll post the link, as to its accuracy im not 100% sure. My newts dont stress out over anything theyre too laid back and seem to like human attention (as it ultimately = food)

 

[John]

This video is in German but it's the visuals that count - watch what happens when a bullfrog tries to eat a Taricha.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_aj2qcjFFXg&rel=1

 

[Jennewt]

"[...]apparantly they secrete a sort of acidic smell when they secrete the toxin (when stressed) Ive never expereienced this myself however." are you sure? since the toxic fluid consists of millions upon millions of amino acids, hard to believe it smells and if it by some reasons unknown smells wouldn't the smell rather remind of raw eggs?

I have experienced the smell of stressed newts, although they were not Taricha. When I was photographing my Neurergus, they had a very strange smell, and I'm sure it was a toxin intended to drive me (the predator) away. I would describe the smell as acrid or musky. I can believe it could be described as acidic.

 

[krk11]

Hey John love that video. It's amazing how fast it killed the bullfrog.

 

[John]

Well the narrator does say that a few minutes have passed between when we see the frog leave the water and when you see the corpse. But it is very interesting. The only thing that bugs me is that this was obviously staged, although very few people are going to complain about there being one fewer American bullfrog in the world.

 

[snussmak]

in my opinion, the biggest question still is: why did the taricha genus evolve to carry such lethal toxins? i mean, other species of salamanders and newts carries less lethal toxins (maybe because they only need toxins against smaller enemies). in that case it must mean that taricha is being hunted by predators with such a large body volume that the only defense is extremely lethal toxins in order to survive.

 

[Jennewt]

Taricha and a certain species of garter snake are locked in an "arms race". There are garter snakes on the west coast that have evolved the ability to tolerate TTX. The Taricha evolutionary response has been to become increasingly toxic, while the snakes became increasingly tolerant. The snakes pay a price though, as some of their nerve cells don't work as well, so they are generally slow and not well adapted to catching prey that moves faster than newts.

 

[snussmak]

Taricha and a certain species of garter snake are locked in an "arms race". There are garter snakes on the west coast that have evolved the ability to tolerate TTX. The Taricha evolutionary response has been to become increasingly toxic, while the snakes became increasingly tolerant. The snakes pay a price though, as some of their nerve cells don't work as well, so they are generally slow and not well adapted to catching prey that moves faster than newts.

that's what i'm talking about specialised hunter and prey!

 

[Kaysie]

I recall somewhere also reading a paper/seeing a presentation/seeing something where birds (Herons) will attack Taricha until they extrude their toxins, then wash them off in the water. They'd repeat this a few times, and then eat the newt.

 

[snussmak]

seems like a weird behaviour, but wouldn't it be logical if at least some toxin stayed inside the body of the newt? anyway an interesting way of reassuring that the food isn't toxic