T. Marmoratus, or pygmeus?

[terry]

I obtained some Marbled newts in a fair but now i wonder if they are marmoratus or pygmeus? Can anyone tell the difference?
( and how the heck can i post a lovely large picture.)

 

[ester]

Weird, I thought I posted something here last night already.. With the sizes given in the chat room (15cm and 17cm) I think these can only be T. marmoratus.

 

[terry]

I managed to blow up the image to fit the constraints of the size limit. Hope it turned out better than the first one. This is the first shot in its near original size.

I reckon the first two from left to middle are young males. a Bright neon coloured female is beneath them and a drabber female to the right.

 

[ester]

Here's a picture of my lonely 1 year old marmoratus. I think it's gonna be a she.
She's now 12 cm long and still has the pink belly.

She's a bit clingy but has some serious hind legs!

 

[sergé]

Can you post belly pictures...than I can tell you what they are.

 

[terry]

Well,
After much coaxing, They managed to enter the water on their own and Finally approached the front of their holding tank so I could get a pretty decent shot of their undersides. Here they are:

The one on the left is a female, The one on the right is a male. Both are about 2 years old and measure about 11.5 CM

 

[sergé]

I have posted pictures of them in the past. The animals are however for sure from Spanish/Portugese origin and not French.
Do you know if all your animals are related? The darker ones have more typical pygmaeus pattern on the back. But..the northern Portugese/Spanish marmoratus populations can resemble pygmaeus. But as you compare it with Ester picture; here animal is more robust and bright green, which is typical for marmoratus.
I would say they are pygmaeus.

 

[terry]

Thanks for your reply sergé. The breeder had no real knowledge of them and he called them marbled newts. I do seem to have one or two of them which are true T. marmoratus as their colouration matches those of Ester's. The ones I photographed were the ones I suspected to be pygmaeus. I do not know if they are related to each other. The breeder kept them in a pond in his greenhouse/garden.

I even wonder if he may have placed marmoratus and pygmaeus in the same area and they somehow crossbred? Thanks for your feedback. During the weekend I will make more detailed photos of the group dorsally and ventrally.

 

[rubén]

I think are pygmaeus from Portugal

 

[terry]

Really?

I'm currently allowing the male(s) to revert to a breeding state. Then I could take photographs and allow the people here to identify them. Serge apparently has some experience with pygmaeus and so far I'm leaning towards pygmaeus myself. We shall see when the male is ready.

 

[sergé]

If the male get's into breeding condition you can tell for sure.
By the way...did you ask for papers when you received the animals? In the Netherlands these animals are still protected (see under legislation on the www.salamanders.nl).

 

[terry]

Hello Sergé,

I'll be observing the male's crest as it develops and by then I'll be able to ascertain its species with your help.

I wrote a letter to the breeder enquiring about the juveniles origins once more and where/ from whom he originaly obtained them. I also requested for papers (something which I was working on) to be sent to me with his signature and proof of transfer in accordance to European guidelines (Flora, Fauna and Habitat guideline 92/43/EEU) I am awaiting his reply. I will update you as soon as these papers are handed to me.

 

[sergé]

You don't have up date me, but it is for yourself that you require them. But if he can't give you documents, please let me know in private (if he is a member of the society I will contact him).
It is often forgotten, but you need to have them if inspection arrives. Officially this person has already traded illegally by giving them to you without the proper papers. He has to sign a note declaring that he has bred them and his has to be able to show where he has got his animals from. They have to come with the animals...not afterwards.

 

[terry]

Here is the measurement of the largest male of the group I managed to make before setting him into aquatic conditions. He is about 2 years old.

Here is a dorsal view of the male. Note the short crest and the black broken striped pattern.

Another thing I learned about this batch was they descended from a generation of marbled newts 20 years ago! It will prove difficult to trace whom the original breeders were!

 

[rubén]

Terry...

If you are sure about the pure line of blood ( something difficult if we talk about a generation of 20 years ago! ) I can tell you something: The populations from the central coast of Portugal ( marmoratus/pygmaeus ) and Serra Da Estrela ( marmoratus ) have, just exactly, that dorsal pattern and belly.

 

[terry]

Hello Rubén,

Thanks for your observation. I really need to know where the first animals were obtained and from whom to know for sure. This complicates things. I am awaiting the male to metamorphose into his breeding garb for a good visual identification. Perhaps then it will be clearer. The female has been introduced into the water yesterday and already her belly appears even whiter than on land. I'll be posting photos when i take them.

When I was surfing the internet for a visual example of pygmaeus, my female resembled the female pygmaeus found in Alcalá la Real or Zafarraya. ( Serra de Baza?). I could be wrong though.

 

[rubén]

Yes Terry

I see that you have been searching. Well, the T. pygmaeus from Granada province ( LLanos de Zafarralla ) are small newts: Never over 11/12 cm of total size, so if yours reach 12 cm in 2 years...
The pygmaeus from Alcalá La Real have the typical pattern of this species in central Spain: Yellow background with a low density of black/small dots... and then, are also small newts ( and frequently, neotenic ).
I think are marms from Portugal, or even northern Spain...

 

[terry]

Rubén,
Thank you very much for your insight. I guess I can temporarily rule out the fact that they are pygmaeus at this point since the male exceeds 11 centimeters.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that some of them resemble marmoratus and while the whole group are 2 years old ( more or less) only two were of considerable size then again barely exceeding 11 cm. ( my previous measurement of 15-17 cm was incorrect.. thanks to bad eyesight and estimation.)

Sergé suggested that they could be pygmaeus and now that you mention the possibility that they could be marmoratus of a particular region, at least we have more or less guessed their supposed locality: Both of you mentioned similar locales so the current conclusion is that they could be Marbleds from Portugal, or Northern Spanish.

Wether they are pygmaeus or marmoratus resembling pygmaeus, that remains to be seen. The male will reveal the answer to us in good time hopefully. Please allow me some time to obtain pictures. I hope we can further establish their sort in due time. This is getting very interesting.

 

[sergé]

I think Rubén has a little bit more experience than I have. i have seen T. pygmaeus from different area's but have not seen many marmoratus from Spain/Portugal, and I knwo that they are highly variable.
I do know however that many marmratus sold in the Netherlands 10-20 years ago came from area's in the north of Portugal and the northwest of Iberia. They were for sure all marmoratus. I have never seen pygmaeus in imports. So...if the origin is the pet trade...it is most likely that they are marmoratus.

 

[terry]

Well a pity I was not around in the Netherlands 20 years ago! Thus I guess it is safe to assume that this particular colony is possibly of portuguese origin. More and more I am beginning to think that it could just be marmoratus then.

The male has climbed back on its floating island. I guess he is not all to willing to take to an aquatic existence

. Probably not a good idea to force or incude an aquatic stage in the male if he is not interested. However the female is already aquatic for days!

If they do turn out to be marmoratus then it is my intention to obtain a pair of Pygmaeus to see the living comparison by myself.

BTW sergé is it true that pygmaeus are a little more stouter than marmoratus? (i.e. shorter legs and more plump in appearance)?