Sick newt - please help!

[sanja]

Hi,

At this point I am totally desperate. I have my CFBN for a year and a half now. A few months ago he became "depressed". He avoids water, doesn't eat at all (he had quite an appetite before and I really haven't seen him eating for a long, long time, I wonder how he is still alive). I tried feeding him different types of food, but he doesn't show any interest whatsoever. Also, he sheds his skin very frequently. What should I do? Should I put him into a different tank? Try to treat him with some medications? What could be the possible causes of this problems?

I would appreciate any suggestions, since I don't know that much about amphibians. Thanks,

Sanja

 

[jesper]

It is probably some kind of infection or possibly poisoning. Do you keep them under 20 Celsius, do you do regular water changes, have you checked nitrates and ammonia? Do you see any white fuzz? If you do it is a fungal disease, if ulcers I think it is a bacterial disease. If you find that nothing is wrong, then I would say try with kanamycin - it is your safest bet - if you find fuzz treat with antifungal agents for fish.

Good luck
Jesper

 

[samuel]

Jesper, how about removing the newt from the main tank b4 treating with kanamycin?

 

[jesper]

Yeah that would be good, I often do it to reduce the amount of kanamycin used and to avoid killing off "good" bacteria. However one has to weigh in the amount of stress a move produces.

 

[samuel]

the move is temporary and i feel would not have longer lasting bad effects compared to killing off the good bacteria in the tank which would subject the newt to higher ammonia concentration.

 

[sanja]

Hi,

Thanks for your help. I indeed saw some white stuff on his skin, and bought the anti fungal med for fish (Mardel). I have been putting this into the water for the last two days, and today my newt developed even worse white spots on the body (and especially on the head). Please see the attached picture. Also note that my newt doesn't have a left eye (I took him from the experimental lab where he shared the tank with 20 other, much bigger newts; I have no idea how and when he lost his eye, but this must have happened more than 2 years ago). Thanks much for your help - I really have to save my little creature

!

 

[sanja]

One more thing...
The medication I've been using is effective against "true fungal infections of fish and eggs and also some bacteria". It's called Maroxy (Mardel brand).
Thx!

 

[samuel]

Newts are more sensitive to treatment than fish. Hence most pple use a smaller dosage than that recommended by the medication. Hope it gets well soon.

 

[sanja]

Ok, I can reduce the dosage, but can you tell from the picture if this is a fungal infection?
Thx!

 

[samuel]

sorry man, it's quite blur and i can't really tell, i'm sure jesper would bne better at it

 

[edward]

Many of the antifungal medications sold for fish contain copper (usually chelated) which is very toxic to amphibians and can be immunosuppresive (see Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry). If you are trying to determine if the skin condition is caused by a saprolegeniasis infection then a skin scraping needs to be looked at under a microscope to look for the fungal elements. (frequent shedding may be indicative of poor water quality, and has been linked to chytrid infection in anurans and caudates).
There are other possible infective (and noninfective) elemements that can cause changes in skin pigmentation and frequency of shedding (such as age).
As for Kanamycin and the majority of OTC antibiotics these have several problems such as 1)lack of effectiveness due to resistant bacteria (if they were still really effective then they would not be otc and unregulated and would still be drugs of choice) 2) are difficult to get up to a theraputic level and then maintain the theraputic levels in the tissues of the animal as the skin is not really permeable to these medications. (They are usually a placebo for the owner to make them feel good by doing something) 3) are very hard on the kidneys of the amphibian and can damage or destroy the kidneys of the amphibian. (In fact a quick glance in Amphibian Medicine and Husbandry did not show a listing for Kanamycin nor a recommended dosage).
I did not see a good work up on the husbandry conditions prior to beginning the shotgun treatments.
1) what are the water conditions in the original tank (pH, Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, hardness)
2) how often are water changes performed and what is the amount of water changed at one time? Is the gravel or other substrate vacumned to remove uneaten food items.
3) how large is the original enclosure
4) how many animals are living in it at this time and what are they
5)what is the feeding schedule for the newt and the items offered for food

It is also possible that the newt reverted to a terrestrial stage due to some stress and as such needs to be offered live moving prey to trigger a feeding response until it can be acclimated to feeding off of tweezers. (I didn't see any discussion of this here either).
Ed

 

[jesper]

Hi Ed!
Hey, as I see it - I only offered swift advice on the 19th of december.
I dont really know anything of the resistance situation of bacterial newt-pathogens when it comes to kanamycin or any other drug. Kanamycin is an aminoglycoside which is not used today primarily due to serious side effects on hearing and on the kidneys. Kanamycin is still used though, it is not very usual. Instead other aminoglykosides with less side-effects are in use like tobramycin, gentamycin and neomycin. Their serious side-effects limits their usefulness though. Resistance are also widespread among human pathogens - this does not say anything about newt-pathogens though, unless it is the same bacteria under the same conditions which I do not find likely...

Have kanamycin been showed to damage kidneys in newts??

If you know about newt-illness I urge you to share your knowledge more often and also in a level so that the people who dont visit the vet can benefit from it. The fact is that most people here do not visit a vet(or a herp vet) when their newt is ill - instead they come here and everybody here do our best to help.
Maybe the advise is not always the best but hey I think it is mostly good advise.
And sure the advise I posted above was perhaps not the best I could have given, but I do not think it was a bad advise. I should have informed about what you said in the above post since I knew all that but I was stressed out and only answered because nobody else had ok?

My question to you will be why didn't you answer this question on the 19th of december??
8 Days later might be too late....

I have myself used kanamycin recently with very good effect despite extremely high dose. To my knowledge the effect is peak concentration sensitive which means that high doses under short times will be effective. The kidney effect is normally reversible under short regimes(in humans)!
I never saw any bloat in my newts despite extreme doses(dont know bioavailability...). But the fact is that my newts died before treatment, treatment stopped the progression of the illness and after a couple of days the patient became better. I would say that is more than placeboeffect on me.

Cheers
/Jesper

 

[edward]

Hi Jasper,
The reason I did not reply earlier is that I have not checked the site in quite awhile.
According to the vets at work 1) all aminoglycosides are nephrotoxic in all vertebrates. 2) Kidney damage can take a significant amount of time to show itself in amphibians (up to weeks to months later) 3)MDR is wide spread in the enviroment due to F+ bacteria sharing the MDR plasmids. (This is how for example salmonella can share MDR plasmids with shigella or E. coli).
(When I referred to drugs of choice I was referring to use in animals and not people).

To use a aminoglycoside that has some pharmacokinetic data (gentamycin in amphibians administered as a bath or even as a cutaneous solution) as an example, theraputic levels were reached within 8 hours but the serum levels continued to elevate up to 5 days later resulting in fatalities from overdosing the amphibian with an aminoglycoside.
Tetracyline (and derivatives) is a drug of choice for amphibians but usually for chlamydiosis/ and sensitive gram positive bacteria(which is a problem as the majority of the bacteria that infect amphibians are gram-negative and tetracycline has no effect on these pathogens). Enrofloxin (baytril) is currently one of the drugs of choice for amphibians (and other herps) with a combination of amikacin and pipercillian (administered IM) as a distant second.
Effective treatment with many amonoglycosides requires spaced treatments over a period of up to two weeks to maintain theraputic levels.
Many amphibian infections are not with a single agent but are often mixtures of bacteria so treating the symptoms without a sensitivity assay is a form of shotgun treatment and is not appropriate. These secondary infectious agents are often silent killers (See Whitaker and Wright 2003).
AS you did not determine the infectious agent (if any) in your treatment of your newts, you cannot state with any certainty that you were able to cure the infection. You treated a symptom and whether the symptom self-resolved or resolved due to your treatment is unknown.
I am not a vet so I cannot prescribe treatments and am uncomfortable in doing so.
There is no reason to not take your animal to a vet. If you do not have a herp vet near you ask the local vets if they would be comfortable with seeking advice from a Zoo with a major herp (or amphibian) collection. All of the AZA Zoo Vets that I am aware of will consult with other Vets for free.
I am also stressed out due to a severe shoulder injury (which also limits my time on the computer as sitting upright becomes excruiating after awhile).
We can continue this off thread if you desire (it will make answering easier for me right now).
Ed

 

[sanja]

Hi all,

Thanks for all your suggestions. I haven't been able to check the forum for couple of days due to a flu. So, first I reduced the dosage of the medication (this was a week ago), and then stopped putting it into the water (recommended treatment time was 5 days and I followed that). I can't notice anything strange on my newt's skin any more. However he is extremely skinny and still haven't started eating.
Here are the answers to Ed's questions: tank and water quality - 1. I will take the water sample today to pet shop to check it. I add water conditioner for amphibians that kills ammonia every time I change water. Is this enough, or I should do something else?
2. I change the water every 3-4 weeks, and I change it fully (I have a filter so it doesn't get dirty to quickly)
3. tank capacity is about 10 gallons
4. there is only one newt, no other animals
5. feeding schedule was twice a week, mostly crickets. My newt liked only one kind of dry food which I couldn't find recently. He doesn't like any other kind, and he was also never interested in worms. Do you have any other suggestions about food?
I was also vacuuming the tank bottom regularely, but I am afraid that there were still some food remainings, so I decided to remove the gravel totally for now. My newt is in a different tank (which is really small so I can't leave it there for too long)for the last 2 days because I heard that one of the ways to kill all the bacteria is to simply leave the tank to dry up. Is this true? I am planning to put the newt back today or tomorrow.
BTW, for how long newts can survive without eating? Thanks again for all your help.
Sanja

 

[samuel]

U shdn't change it fully. Kill's ur bio filter and frozen bloodworms are btter than crickets
Actually, i have no idea how it's possible to feed orientalis crickets. Seems impossible man. u shd do 1/3 changes.

 

[edward]

Hi Sanja,
Depending upon the temperature, many amphibians can go months without food. However extended starvation can also kill the animal from refeeding syndrome. Basically what happens is that a food item that is acceptable to the animal is located and the animal is promptly fed to satiation. Unfortuantely the animal cannot tolerate the sudden increase in nutrients and crashes and dies. The way around this is to feed very small meals daily and after a week or two increase the volume of the meal.
A couple of concerns right off the bat (and further questions)
1) if you are only changing the water about every month how often are you adding top off water to replace that which evaporates?
I would recommend not removing more than 10-20% of the water at a time, and doing it more frequently as this will help prevent the stress on the animals and you biological filter (please the article on cycling your aquarium under caudate care as this will help alot). The removal of the gravel is fine.
Many of the ammonia removers simply lock the ammonia up for a short period of time and are not a goof substitute for an established biological filter. While there will be a decrease in biological function without a source of ammonia, this will not affect the filter potentially as much as repeated 100% water changes.
Size of the food item can also be important, the crickets should not be larger than the newts head in length. These are not always readily available. When you say the newt was not interested in worms what kind of worm did you try?
Please make sure the store tests for pH, hardness, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I strongly recommend investing in a test kit fir yourself so you can monitor the situation from home.
Ed

 

[elisabeth]

How is he now? Any change?

 

[sanja]

YAY! My newt just grabbed the cricket from my hand and swallowed it in a sec. I was so happy that I screamed (although trying not to stress him too much

.

Thanks for the advice on water changing, I will just be removing part of the water from now on.
Also, I always feed my newt-ie with the small crickets which he can easily swallow.

When should I offer him food again? In a couple of days? Should I keep the gravel off the tank?
Are there different kind of worms? I think I should diversify his menu more and offer him different types of food, and I would appreciate any suggestion of the foods newts may potentially be interested in.

I really appreciate your help, and hope he'll stay in a good health. Cheers!

Sanja

 

[jennifer]

Chopped earthworms, frozen bloodworms, etc.
Here's a whole list:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/foods.shtml

If keeping no gravel makes cleaning the tank easier, and it looks OK, sure, skip the gravel. My tanks have a few pebbles, but no gravel.

 

[edward]

Hi Sanja,
Offer small meals daily, for about two weeks and then start increasing the amount of food offered at each feeding. Wait about a day and then offer another cricket, and just keep offering a cricket a day for about two weeks and then you can increase the amount of food at each feeding. When the newt is getting several crickets at a time you can also then decrease the number of feedings a week.
Ed