Sick Fire Salamander Larvae

[mewsie]

Hi all,

Hoping you can all help.

6 weeks ago my salamander laid 29 larvae. 1 died roughly a week and a half ago for causes unknown.

Last night I found two dead.

Today I have separated 6 as they are showing symptoms of being ill.

Symptoms:

Floating in later stages.
Patch of peeling, possibly fungusy skin on one side roughly mid way down body.
Same patch is indented.
VERY skinny despite previously all being chubby and eating well. Plenty of food available.
Occasional spinning.
Pale colouring.

Trying to get some photos for you all.

They're currently in one large plastic container with a little sand, access to land and plenty of daphnia plus occasional bloodworm.

I did recently buy food from a new source so could have introduced a pathogen.

Tank has a very small air powered filter, plus regular other-daily water changes.

A few of the others are a little lethargic I think, but most of the remainder are eating well and looking chubby and healthy.

Any ideas for course of action?

These are my first salamander larvae so haven't had to treat one before.

Thanks in advance everyone!

 

[Chinadog]

It does sound like a water issue, it's sometimes better to keep them in stable filtered water than to do big changes on larvae tanks. What are the water parameters before a water change?

 

[mewsie]

Thanks Chinadog, I'll check when I get in, ran out to get some quarantine tubs!

My first thought was water conditions and i swapped them into fresh water before running out. The tank is filtered with small changes every other day - also the identical indentations and patches of fungus didn't seem to tie up with poor water quality.

I'll post the parameters shortly, I left the other tub as it was.

 

[Chinadog]

It was just a thought, I have zero experience with salamandra larvae but other species I have kept seem to do better in mature systems rather than the super clean, large water change way. They seem very sensitive to fluctuating water chemistry in general while they're very young, not just ammonia and nitrate.
p.s love your avatar it's brilliant.

 

[mewsie]

At the moment, any help I get is VERY much appreciated (And thanks )

OK, so water params:

Ammonia 0ppm (possibly slightly towards 0.12 if I was being picky)
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 10-15ppm

I'll check pH shortly too.

Here are some pics:

This little fella is almost entirely unresponsive but still upright and will wriggle if nudged. He also appears to have an affected left front leg as you can probably make out - it is pale and does not move - it is on the same side as the 'patch'.

Another affected larvae

Unaffected larvae. Two more are now showing symptoms. This does not bode well.

 

[mewsie]

Another picture: side view

 

[Chinadog]

It can be difficult to see a zero reading on some test kits can't it? I would say it is zero judging by the other levels. In the photo's it looks almost like an infection of some kind, maybe bacterial? But I don't know why an infection would spread through a batch of healthy larvae in decent quality water. Have they shared any tools or nets with another species? I wonder if they could have caught something that they have no defence to? Sorry I can't be of more help.

Edit: on that extra picture it looks like a fungus, but I suppose that could be secondary to something else...

 

[mewsie]

It can be difficult to see a zero reading on some test kits can't it? I would say it is zero judging by the other levels.

Agreed. Although now I've swapped them into a clean tank I'm back to zero with the ol' cycling!

In the photo's it looks almost like an infection of some kind, maybe bacterial? But I don't know why an infection would spread through a batch of healthy larvae in decent quality water. Have they shared any tools or nets with another species?

The only thing shared is a bucket used for clean water, and a pair of tweezers. The caecilians, axolotls, turtles and fish are all well and their usual selves, but that's not to say that they are just less susceptible because they're bigger and older.

Edit: on that extra picture it looks like a fungus, but I suppose that could be secondary to something else...

It has the appearance of fungus in that it's 'fluffy', but it could be skin sloughing off...

 

[Chinadog]

It's possible that another species you keep may harmlessly (to them) carry some kind of illness. If it's something that the salamandra larvae wouldn't encounter ordinarily in nature, they may have no immune defence against it and could possibly wipe them out very quickly.
I'm not saying that is what's happening but it is a real risk if they have shared any equipment with other species tank water on it.

 

[michael]

I'd get rid of the sand. Back of a little on frozen bloodworms. Add an airstone or small bubbling airline. Try live blackworms if you can get ahold of them. Do partial water changes with aged cool aquarium water.

Sand can hold bacteria. Bloodworms in excess will cause bloat and digestive problems. Just an airstone will help water quality. Live food often pollutes less than frozen or dried food. Sometimes a bacterial film can develop on the bottom of a container. Lightly go over the container with an aquarium safe sponge now and then.

The problem is probably mostly from water quality and digestive issues. Work on the water quality and feed lightly until things get straightened out. If fungus shows up on the salamander treat with Furan 2 or methylene blue. Methylene blue can cause water quality issues. A little aquarium salt in the water couldn't hurt.

 

[mewsie]

I'd get rid of the sand. Back of a little on frozen bloodworms. Add an airstone or small bubbling airline. Try live blackworms if you can get ahold of them. Do partial water changes with aged cool aquarium water.

Bloodworms in excess will cause bloat and digestive problems. Just an airstone will help water quality. Live food often pollutes less than frozen or dried food. Sometimes a bacterial film can develop on the bottom of a container. Lightly go over the container with an aquarium safe sponge now and then.

Thanks for replying Michael, I appreciate it.

Sand is already gone. The filter runs off an air pump so it's a bit like a big airstone I guess - would you recommend swapping it out? Water changes have been with aged water but not from an aquarium so I'll make that change.

The bloodworm have been live, I've maybe given them 20% bloodworm, but mostly daphnia. Will cut the bloodworm out and go for blackworm - thanks. I did not realise bloodworm could cause such problems.

The problem is probably mostly from water quality and digestive issues. Work on the water quality and feed lightly until things get straightened out. If fungus shows up on the salamander treat with Furan 2 or methylene blue. Methylene blue can cause water quality issues. A little aquarium salt in the water couldn't hurt.

Check.

Should I follow packaging directions for the Furan 2 or methylene blue, or would you make changes for their size?

There is an exotics vet the other side of town who should be able to supply these to me if I can't find them in a store, so I'll visit her tomorrow and look to treat the 6 I have moved to the separate tank.

Fingers crossed this has caught the problem early enough - thank you very much for your advice.

mew

 

[michael]

I'd go with 1/2 to full strength with furan 2. I'd save methylene blue as a last resort. Medication is also hard on the larvae. Don't medicate at all if losses slow down or stop. Good biological filtration is important. I'd just go with the filter.

 

[Chinadog]

I was just wondering how things turned out, did you manage to save any larvae?

 

[michael]

I might have miscommunicated a little. In the U.S. bloodworms are usually chironomid midge larvae. In Europe I believe sometimes blackworms (Lumbriculus variegatus) or tubifex worms are called bloodworms. I would be careful of to many frozen chironomid larvae. Most well rinsed live food should be fine in moderation.

 

[froggy]

The fuzziness looks like saprolegniasis. I had a similar problem in alpine newt larvae that I moved to an unprepared tank. I stopped the deaths over night by adding extra aeration/sponge filters, lots of live plants (actively growing ones from another aquarium) and some mature aquarium water. Obviously, I can't tie the effects down to one intervention, but I think that all three things helped to rapidly mature the microbiota of the aquarium and limit the fungus.

I lost every larva that had started to show symptoms, however.

I hope you can get some animals through.

C

 

[mewsie]

Hey folks, sorry for the delay in response.

Unfortunately I've lost 7 larvae so far, and 3 more are looking pretty unwell.

Froggy, saprolegniasis looks pretty similar so we've implemented your suggestions and are generally keeping them as spotless as possible.

I wasn't able to find Furan 2 so have treated with a mild dose of methylene blue into the tub of sick larvae in a last ditch attempt to save them. I am down in London at the moment so relying on folks at home to keep on top of them - will report back tomorrow.

It's quite distressing

Thanks so much for your help everyone...