public display of caudata questionaire

[mantighoul]

I am putting together a little paper for the good folks at the aquarium. I was asked the other day about what species, espcially of of north american salamanders would be a great animal to display.
I have my own thing going, but I would LOVE to get everyones opinions from this forum because I know how much you guys love salamanders. Did I mention you guys also are very knowledgeable?

1.Which specie of north American salamander would be a great ambassador to the public?

2. What is the ideal display for specie of salamander you would like to see on display? Include how you would set up the habitat that both engages the viewer and provides a safe and comfortable living space for the animal. I know there is interested in Ambystoma sp.

3. Which salamanders can be the greatest value for education, ability to thrive in captivity-including possibility of breeding, lifespan, display of lifecylces to the public, etc.

4.Describe what sort of Great Lakes region salamanders would be a great animal as an education and awareness tool of the salamanders of this region. Note, a lot of our wetlands have been drained and paved over. There is restoration going on in south/eastside of Chicago between Lake Calumet and Wolf Lake, for those familiar with the area. Also, some of the last great prairie and wetland areas around Chicago/NWIndiana area and being paved over extensively with the great urban/suburban/exurban expansion gone amok. Also, mudpuppies live right behind the aquarium in Lake Michigan.

5. What salamanders would you expect to see in an aquarium in Chicago?


Thanks, I hope some of you can voice your opinion on this. They want the best for our salamander friends that may possibly go on display. Aquarium is AZA accredited and these animals have better health care than I could ever imagine for my self. BTW, for those interested they also do some research on Caecilians and they breed in house.(Typhlonectes natans i think)They also have great experience with frogs. I saw some pipa pipa with eggs on its back one day. Plenty of tiny little poison frog to American bullfrogs. They had salamanders before, but it was a long time ago, I do not think they had any since they turned the awesome pagoda room into a gift shop.

 

[Jake]

#4
Other than the mudpuppies, unfortunately there are only 3 species that we share ranges with. They are A.tigrinum, A.jeffersonium and A.laterale. I'll try to send you the site with caudates from IL with a range map for each species, most live further south of us.

 

[mantighoul]

I know the site well, there is a link on the chicago herp page.Maps even provide survey information. (http://chicagoherp.org/herps/species.htm is this what you are refering to?) I like it much better than the NW indiana herp pages. I am familiar with in range salamanders with in the suburbs of Chicago. Ambystoma maculatum is also in the area. I have also found some Notophthalmus viridescens in someones sub pump a few years back. People find them in window wells in some of the burbs.Thanks though.

BTW if you are in the area the Chicago herp society is doing their annual display at UIC 4/12-13 10AM-5pm

 

[Otterwoman]

If you include newts under salamanders, I think both T. grans and N. virid. would be great displays. They swim around in their tanks and are very entertaining. And those cute faces.

 

[Jennewt]

As a display species, I think mudpuppies would be the best bet. They are large and fairly active and visible.

If Notophthalmus are local, then those would be my second pick. They are also active and very visible. These have the possibility that they might breed.

An Ambystoma (spotted or tiger) would be worth having, but it's a challenge to create a setup where they are comfortable AND visible to the public. Here is a thread about my own attempt to pull this off:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49080

Regarding the Chicago herp society, this would be something that could be added to the calendar
http://www.caudata.org/forum/calendar.php

 

[Jake]

Siren lacertina would also be a well worthy candidate for display. Mine are very active and they get pretty big. Pseudobranchus sp. are also worthy of display, what they lack in size they make up for in beauty.

Is the Shedd only putting native caudates on display, or is it open to others as well?

 

[onetwentysix]

Mudpuppies might be a good bet, but they might bore visitors. Mine rarely come out from their rocks during the day, and they don't really move all that much. A feeding display type event might be entertaining, though; they're pretty fun to watch eat.

If you do go with mudpuppies, make sure that the entrance to their hide is towards the glass. They'll stick their heads by the hole and visitors might be able to see them more that way. One thing to be careful of with mudpuppies, though, is aggression. Fighting between large animals can potentially be lethal. My larger animal thankfully gets along well with the others, but my smaller animals are always fighting around feeding time, so that's something to consider.

I think Notos might make a good choice if you go with a native. They're active, attractive, and easily visible.

 

[mantighoul]

jake, it is mostly talk but some people are serious about it going through. They are open to not just native, I have heard people suggest Andrias japonicus and whatnot. I mostly asked what peoples suggestion for natives are because it was brought up to me by people who work in the native waterways gallery, and that includes more than just Great lakes Region. Other freshwater galleries include Asian waterways, rivers wetlands, cave systems, African Great lakes, etc. Like i said, they used to have salamanders in the Tributaries Galleries (pagoda Room) that was destroyed for a new gift shop. They may have had some in special exhibits after that, but i cannot recall. I also have suggest Pseudobranchus I'd love to have some CB of those for myself in the future.

Jennewt, thanks for the link to the post about the tiger salamanders, i remember reading it in the in the past and will re-read it. I have both discussed display of mudpuppies and Notos.

onetwentysix as for boring visitors, if there is a set up where the face or part of body can be seen it would not be a trouble, if the animal looks "cool" and people can see any part of it I am sure it will not bore. We have a huge alligator snapping turtle that hardly ever moves and evener body loves to stare at it. Is their aggression territorial and stronger than axolotl aggression? I have never observed multiple captive specimens together.

 

[onetwentysix]

Aggression depends on the individual animal; it's generally over territory, but it can be a problem over food as well. I have two tanks; a 75 with the biggest animals and a 20L with the smaller ones. In the big tank, my big "female" (14.5 inches, but I've never actually gotten a good look at her cloaca, so I just assume she's a girl for now) tolerates one other animal all the time, but generally doesn't get along with the third occupant; occasionally, all three will be under the same rock instead of just two, but most of the time the third animal gets evicted. Occasionally, I've seen her come out of her rock and take up residence in the third animal's rock, kicking him out, and then a little bit later she'll go back to her rock where he's since taken residence and kick him out again. Fortunately, I've never seen any biting in this tank, since she's probably big enough to kill either of the other two (10 and 8 inch animals); it was a big worry when I decided to add animals for a breeding attempt.

In the second tank, things are different. All three of the animals (1.2) are from 6-8 inches long, and they fight much more frequently. I've observed biting on more than a few occasions, but they've never left a mark and no animals have been wounded. They'll fight during feeding the most, even if there are plenty of worms all over the tank and right in front of them; they'd much rather go for another animal's worm, or even the other animal. I've seen worm tug of wars frequently (this is a small problem in the large tank, but usually they have their heads sticking out in different directions and it's easier to drop food down specifically for each), and it's even gotten to the point where one will swim off with a worm and the other will be mouth to mouth with it, being dragged along but not letting go of the worm. Usually, they do a death roll and both get half a worm.

The second tank will even fight for no apparent reason; I'll be down there working and I'll hear the sound of moving gravel and then see one animal shoot out of the hiding hole. Fortunately, their size makes it difficult for any real damage to occur, but I always worry that someone will go for someone else's gills, which could result in infection or fungus while healing. They'll be getting a larger tank once I move, so hopefully that will help things. I don't know if one animal is more trouble prone than another; I'll admit I haven't paid too much attention for who's who in that tank, since two of them look very similar and I can't recall if the third has done anything outstanding.

Finally, a few years ago I had another 12 inch or so animal, and my big female did not like her at all. Fighting was frequent, and while I never saw anything, I did see the second animal go in the larger one's hole once, after which I heard gravel moving and then saw her shoot back out the other side. She was seperated and kept in her own tank afterwards. Necturus will defend their hides from intruders, but like I've seen in the wild and in my tanks, they're also willing to share with certain animals as well.

So basically, if you go with mudpuppies, you might need someone to watch their interactions at night at first or periodically afterwards, which may be difficult. My animals aren't really active during the day time at all, but they do all sorts of interesting things during the night, and this is when territorial issues might become apparent. You might also consider smaller animals as well; there's a lot less bite strength behind an 8 inch animal and one that's 14 inches; there's a lot of bulk and strength that builds up with those six inches of length. My big animal could certainly draw blood if it came to that, but she's never come close to biting me so far, even when I hand fed (I stopped doing this because it was a pain to wash my whole arm instead of just a hand).

But yeah, you might be able to make an interesting display with Necturus. They're pretty smart (for salamanders), and they tame up pretty well. Mine can generally be seen during the day begging for food, and they'll sometimes come out of their rock and press up against the glass if they see I'm working downstairs.

 

[mantighoul]

onetwentysix, thank you very much for the details of your experience with behavior of multiple mudpuppies. It does not sound too different that some other things I have experience with and the aquarium, but even the common snapping turtle has to have a house to himself. i appreciate all the effort you put into replying.