Possible Sick Axo, or am I Overreacting?

[Shaxx_on_a_Sax]

Hi guys,

I'm relatively new to caudata, but I had a question about one of my axos. I currently have two that I received from my college's biology lab two years ago, and am moving them into a new 40 gallon breeder tank soon (once all the supplies arrive and I can cycle it). However last week I noticed one of mine has a bit of a red rash on her underbelly. I've been treating her water with a full course of E.M. Erythromycin for a week now, and while the rash hasn't really improved she is still eating and acts healthy.

Should I be worried, or is it nothing? I guess I'm still a bit of a hypochondriac after treating my other guy who wouldn't eat for a whole month and had some lesions on his feet. (I think he's doing better. I fridged him for a while because I thought it was impaction, and then gave him the E.M. Erythromycin and his feet have healed to where he doesn't have open sores and he's eating beef liver without any problems/stress)

Edit: Forgot to mention, but I have been keeping up with changing their water every day to every other day

 

[Murk]

Let me start by saying: I'm unsure. I'm not a vet, and not familiar with most axolotl illnesses.
I also dislike when a thread goes unanswered, so I'll give my two cents, for what it's worth.

"...she is still eating and acts healthy."
To me, this is always the most important part.
The rash looks curious, but not severe. Axolotls are very quick to show signs of stress - as long as she isn't doing that, I would guess the affliction isn't all that bad.

I'm not familiar with medication at all, and would be very hesitant to medicate (especially since EM Erythromycin seems to be mainly for fish?) - but if it's worked for you, all the better.

So, I wouldn't worry, but maybe I'm the type that starts worrying too late.
I think it is interesting where the rash came from. What does their current tank look like? I assume the small tubs from the picture are not their usual tanks?

 

[Shaxx_on_a_Sax]

The tubs have been temporary. I did have a tank for them about a year ago, but it developed some cracks and was leaking. I couldn't buy another one until now because I was laid off then, but I've been keeping up with daily to every other day 100% water changes and scrubbing the tubs with baking soda in the meantime. (Yes I know it's not ideal, but it was all I could do when I was saving up money from a few jobs to get a better tank)

I did make sure to look for an antibiotic suitable for axolotls and made sure to ask the local exotic vet before I gave him the Erythromycin.

The stand and filter should arrive in a couple of days, so I'll begin to set everything up closer to the end of the week

 

[Murk]

Hm, I was thinking the rash might just be because of the substrate, but if the tubs are their main habitat for a while, that can't be it.

Did she used to swim/cruise around more in the previous tank? Could it be the skin is simply irritated from lying on a smooth, flat surface all day?

 

[michael]

I'd throw them in the big tank asap. Even if it is not cycled you should be able to maintain water quality better than in a small tub. Add aquarium salt, rock salt, or hoftretters solution to the tank. Throw in a couple dried oak leaves to help fight fungus and help with cycling. Do a 20 percent water changes once a week and feed lightly until the tank cycles. Keep an eye on the belly to see if it starts to look worse.

 

[Shaxx_on_a_Sax]

Ok, I do have aquarium salt so that shouldn't be an issue. I'll admit I'm a bit hesitant about putting them in the tank when it begins to cycle, are you sure it's safe? Also would you recommend naturally cycling the tank or using something like seachem stability to start it?

She was pretty lazy in the previous tank, but she has also gained a bit of weight (possibly from eggs), so her belly is constantly on the bottom

 

[michael]

I've never used anything like seachem stability or chemicals to quick start a tank. I have used filter material from other tanks to quick start a tank. My concern is that by tubing axolotls and medicating axolotls when they might not need it you can possible harm the axolotl. It is tougher to maintain water stability in a small tub than a big tank. The rule of thumb I go by is 10 gallons of water per axolotl. If you put 2 axolotls in a 40 gallon tank it should be able to absorb some extra bioload while cycling.

 

[BenWn]

Oh, hi Shaxx! Glad you took my advice to ask here, lol.

@michael
Shaxx and I know each other IRL and our axolotl come from the same lab, so I can supply some more relevant details.
We've specifically been following Dr. K-ar-en C-raw-ford-'s care protocols (Censoring to prevent her from seeing this thread) for maintaining tubbed axolotl for extended periods of time.
He's primarily been looking to me for advice with animal treatment, which was... not quite the blind leading the blind, but pretty close. Thank you so much for giving advice here.
More background: The E.M. Erythromycin treatment is subsequent to an unmentioned third animal animal actually dying with similar symptoms to the mentioned recently-recovered animal. After a discussion about the second animals' extended refusal of food and lack of BM, I found a veterinarian's reference (link) that suggested (based on symptoms presented) the most likely cause besides impaction was bacterial infection, and gave a list of usable vs. nonusable antibiotic agents appropriate for axolotl, so Shaxx selected from what was available under current conditions and treated with that, which seems to have worked. The other animal was initially being treated because of the fact the bacteria could have gotten to her too through shared equipment etc.

What's an appropriate amount of aquarium salt to add per gallon? This seems easy to overestimate and cause damage.

 

[michael]

I add abut a tablespoon of aquarium salt per 10 gallons of water. Rock salt and solar salt are basically the same as aquarium salt. Marine salt for salt water fish is good too. Lately I just use the Morton (Tm) solar salt in the blue bag.

 

[faebugz]

I'm new to axolotls (so keep in mind this might not be correct), but this is what I know from keeping fish/invertebrates/raising caterpillars/growing plants:

NEVER do a 100% anything change!
Unless the animal is in a temporary sterile environment. There is a lot of good bacteria at work, keeping the bad bacteria in check. I personally have experience making that mistake many different times, across different animals/plants. Nature isn't sterile, and neither should your axolotls whole world be. A sterile environment is like a nice, blank canvas for infection to paint itself onto. If there is literally anything bad in their food, the air, your hand when it touches the water, there's not much keeping it from getting to your axolotl.
Plus, imagine you live your entire life in a bed. Not possible to leave it, just windows all around you. Already not great, but then to make it even worse, every day or two someone rips off all your bedding, throws you in a weird box, then puts you back and it's all new bedding and not even remotely comfortable yet. That's kinda how I imagine your axolotls might feel.

Have you ever heard of a fish-in cycle? It's when a fish tank is cycled with the fish in it, I've done it before when I first got into the hobby, although it's not ideal. I would do that so the bacteria can get growing. Even without the filter, 50-70% water changes every day and you could even try to aerate it somehow whenever you can throughout the day (Like maybe you have an air pump for a mattress, or a turkey baster, or even just agitate it a bit/put a fan on it). The bacteria will start to grow on anything in the tank right away. Also, the lack of substrate could definitely be irritating them.

Personally, I'm kinda poor, so rather than pay $35 for a small bag of sand, I went out into the bush to a river and got some sand there (okay, well I was actually fishing but it was convenient). I just boiled it at home and sloshed out the dirt. You can do the same with bigger rocks and even aquatic plants (plants should go in a 19:1 water/bleach solution for half an hour then get rinsed very well first to get rid of parasites).

Hopefully this helps a bit! Good luck, hope they get better!!

 

[Shaxx_on_a_Sax]

Thank you for all the help guys! I managed to get my tank completely set up a few days ago, and started to cycle it Tuesday. I decided to go with a fishless cycle just for safety reasons (using fish flakes) and because I wanted to learn more about the nitrogen cycle, and BenWn was kind enough to give me some of their old filter media to jump start the cycle.

This morning I tested the water and got ammonia at 0ppm, nitrites at 0ppm, and nitrates at 5ppm. However I'm planning on waiting at least two to three weeks to see if this pattern holds steady. (I'll post pics of the tank later today)

The little guys have been doing alright ever since I made the post. My wildtype is still a little hesitant about eating, but is still fine with beef liver, and my leucistic has remained very enthusiastic when its time to eat.

 

[faebugz]

I'm glad they're doing better! They'll love their new home when it's ready

I'm curious why you feed the beef liver? I've read conflicting things about feeding it

 

[Shaxx_on_a_Sax]

Here's the tank! It's 40 gallons (with 35 gallons of water actually in it) and has three anubias nanas, an amazon sword, and some water wisteria floating on top with some moss balls rolling around on the bottom. The power filter is rated for a 30 gallon (originally I was hoping to get a 29 gallon, but I found the 40 breeder at a good price), and the sponge filter is advertised to handle 15-55 gallon tanks. I decided not to add aquarium salt yet since I read that might harm the plants, and have been putting fish food in the tank around every 12 hours for the past three days. Today the readings were 0ppm for ammonia, 0ppm for nitrites, and 10ppm for nitrates.

As far as why I feed Xol (my wildtype) beef liver, it's because I didn't have too many options for food when I was finishing college, and the professor who I adopted them from said it was suitable for axos. I did ween him off liver a while back and he ate worms for a year straight, but he started refusing anything that wasn't liver after he got sick and it's continued since. I'll try putting him back on worms again once he's 100% recovered.