Possible new subspecies of Calotriton asper.

[Azhael]

It appears that a new population of C.asper has been discovered that differs significantly from the others. This new population is neotenic and it seems there are substantial differences.

I´m sorry i can´t provide an english version, i haven´t been able to find much information on it and it was all in spanish. We´ll have to wait until a scientific article appears to see where this goes.

Anyway, here is an article in spanish, for those who might want to check it.

Descubierta una nueva especie de tritones acuáticos en el Pirineo - Ciencia y Tecnología - El Periódico

By the way, i think i´m going mental because that newt looks remarkably like Pachytriton or that new Paramesotriton species...

 

[PereJosa]

Hello.

It's only neoteny population, not probable subespecie (but only neoteny population at present) other populations are extinted for introduced fish. At the moment....

2nd Calotriton surprise in not many years (arnoldi the 1st surprise 5 ears ago...).

Adeu!!

 

[Azhael]

It certainly has the right ingredients to be a subspecies. Anyway i never said it was, and i have not nearly enough info on this yet, but i just think the possibility exists. As i said, we´ll have to wait and see what the results of the analysis of this population brings.

 

[NewtZoo]

Thanks Azhael,
Love the science and ecology updates, especially since many of the global stuff does not make U.S. channels, unless its a big break through.

 

[PereJosa]

Hello.

I'm read the information about this population ( at this moment there aren't scientific paper) in the newspapers, and webs, and i not reed anything about subespecie possibility!!
you have inedit non published information in your hands Rodrigo about this possibility?? or you know this population?? you see other photos ( not the only photo are showed in newspaper?).

The scientific talk about to the isolated population, anything talk about subespecie ( but in future are probably, all in the world is probably in the future).

In my opinion the correct, is wait this scientific team show more information of this newts. except you know this population better than this unevirsity team ( i think no). it's risky speak when you only read this new in a newspaper...poorly information. It's work for taxonomic spacialist, are you one ??



Bye!

 

[Yahilles]

Sounds amazing! Calotriton asper are among my very favourite European newt species.

At the moment....

What do you mean by that? Possible introduction programs for these newts?

 

[eljorgo]

Epic. When I opened the link I thought i was looking to a new Pachytriton species.
There are really look alike. In taxonomic therms we all know they are from same family and had been together in triturus genus on the past. Yeah seems that every newt was really a triturus. Even so its amazing to see this adaptation in such a small space of time as only 8000 years. Neoteny is promoted by cold deep waters i guess in this case at 2100m it helped a lot. In the on-line newspaper it said they were different in genetic therms so yeah new neotenic subspecies to come shortly. Thanks on the info Rodrigo.

 

[Azhael]

Pere, i ignore what your problem is with me, but i think anyone would agree that given the description of this new population, the POSSIBILITY of it being a subspecies is certainly real (it may be geographically and genetically isolated...you don´t need more for it to be possible). Wether it is or not, we´ll find out when more info becomes available (there have been previous propositions for subspecies that didn´t come through, so who knows).... I honestly don´t care..whatever they are described as, they are brilliant!

I first heard about this in a different forum under the title "new species of newt in the pyrenees" (just like in the article´s title)..now THAT is incorrect... You might want to have a word with them or the newspaper instead of trying to undermine me for commenting on a sensible possibility.

 

[PereJosa]

Hello.

Yahilles; Quote:
At the moment....
What do you mean by that? Possible introduction programs for these newts?

I'm not know anything about this possibility. My idea is in the past there are other "population of newts" like this, but there are extinted for introduced fish. This newts are discovered at present days,...i think in the future are probably found similar newts in other parts (only possibility..).


Azhael i tell you in PM im not have any problem with you. My english is very bad, and for me is difficult write in english. My answer it's like to "hard", but i'm not know tint my answer, i only say i'ts risky refer to new sub. because there are not many infrmation about this newts, and only this unevirsity team have this information, but my english is very direct (and bad). only this.

It's probably the possibility of sub. are discussed in future, i'm enjoyed discuss about this possibility, but with complet information, photos, etc...

Bye!

 

[Lisso93]

Hello.
I asked a renowned herpetologist Spanish and told me neotonic individuals have already been described in the Val d'Aran (Catalonia, Spain) and certainly a lot to be individuals with different genetics. I will tell you more when you know something else.
Greetings.

 

[Azhael]

I read somewhere that that population (or at least i think it was that population), although it was proposed as a subspecies, in the end was not formally considered as such. Perhaps this new population will end up the same way, or perhaps not, we´ll see.

 

[eljorgo]

So what do you think Rodrigo? Should they be or should be not called a subspecies?

They said in the article that in the past 8000 years they stated evolving diffenrently, (glacier melting correct?) are more slender, live less, are neotenic, have a brighter colour, have smooth skin... And are still same species?!

 

[Ajolote]

That seems interesting! Though.. It has a lack of color.

Suena interesante! Pero.. Tiene poco color.

 

[Azhael]

How should i know, Jorge? :S
I´m merely stating the possibility, because given the information they have provided, it certainly could be a subspecies. However there have been a few attempts at naming subspecies of C.asper and in all cases, so far, none have succeeded. Something about this species being very variable, morphologically, but having very little genetic variability (kind of like in humans)....

In the old days, i´m sure they would have already classified it as a subspecies, but these days, it´s all about genetics, so we´ll see.

 

[Mac Myers]

Interesting Azhael. Thanks. Nothing about this in the US. Took me a few hours to read due to my poor Spanish, but I enjoyed it and the possibilities.

 

[PereJosa]

Hello.

I ask, to one of the spanish experts of newts ( not in captivity careful) in investigation, distribution, and taxonomy, Albert Montori, and he studied calotriton asper many years ( i recomended for example this paper, he is an author, and write other papers about Calotriton asper http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2008/f/z01945p050f.pdf).


This informal opinion with mail, it's ( my traduction is not 100% correctly..);

" I dont believe that population are subespecie, because the neotheny is not new in Calotriton. I don't believe the genetic diferentiation, and really isolated population. But wait to the publication. At other hand the morfologic diferentiation it's evident because there are neotenic newts".

This opinion it's important for me, because im not an expert, but he is an expert in this newts.

Only i repeat, for me it's more risky say to subespecie to this population with the present information.

Bye!

 

[Lisso93]

Hello.
The truth is that I asked him via e-mail to Albert Montori and as I said in a previous post I said that efforts should be neotonic population and that he doubted very much that have different genetic and other neighboring towns had already been neoteny cited in the Val d'Aran.
Let's see if we learn that he has said the herpetologist who did the study ...
Greetings.

 

[Azhael]

The morphological (at least some) differences are certainly a direct cause of neoteny and have no further relevance.
Just because neoteny has been described before in the species, it doesn´t eliminate entirely the possibility.
As i said, other populations have been proposed as subspecies before, so obviously other people have considered certain differences enough to at the very least propose it and study it. However, to this day, all former proposals were declined, and this population seems very likely to end the same way.
Thank you very much for posting that information. An expert´s opinion adds a lot.
See however, that even he promotes caution, and waiting for the study.

I don´t see the risk of commenting on the possibility, Pere. If i had affirmed categorically that this population is a new subspecies, then yes, i would certainly be making a big mistake. All i did, though, was saying that the possibility exists (which it does), i obviously don´t dare claim any truth from my part xDD