Please help us help Tigger!

[deadhead]

Thanks for the great site. We're in Colorado and on Monday we had a snow storm. I walked out to the trash, and saw a salamander SLOWLY trudging across my driveway. He(?) looked very unhappy and cold so we did what we thought was best and "saved" him. (I know that many of you may not agree with that, but I was worried he would freeze to death in the snow).
We found out he's a Tiger Salamander. From head to tip of tail he's about 4-5" long. We bought him a 10 gallon fish tank and have it filled with 3" of tropical soil, terrarium moss, a large water basin, a cave for hiding in and some fake leafy greens for cover. The pet store said we should feed him crickets and mealworms-2 or 3 a day, alternating.
At first, he climbed all over the place and was in and out of the water. Now, he seems to just be sitting in one or two spots (out of the water) and has walked right over the mealworms with no interest.
In the past three days, we've given him 2 crickets and 4 mealworms. We can't find the crickets, but they may be in his cave, and have thrown out 3 floating mealworms. One is still hanging around the tank.
So, to make a long story short, are we doing the right things? Does anyone have any suggestions about how to make him more happy? How and how often do we need to clean out (replace?) all the dirt in his cage? Are the foods we're using appropriate? Is there any way to be sure he's eating?
Any advice would really be appreciated. We really weren't planning on being salamander enthusiasts, but now that we have one, we want to be the best keepers for Tigger that we can.
Sorry for the lengthy post and thanks, in advance, for your time!
Ashley

 

[Kaysie]

Sounds like you're mostly on the right track. At 4-5 inches long, it's becoming an adult. This means it'll move a lot less. But (like typical) the pet shop has given you misleading advice. I suggest trying earthworms or nightcrawlers over crickets and mealworms. They're more nutritionally balanced, and mealworms and crickets both can bite and cause injury to your salamander.

As for your substrate, I use a mixture of coconut fiber and organic topsoil. I give mine 4-5 inches worth, so they have plenty of room for burrowing. As long as you are able to keep it fairly moist, and the salamander has lots of places to hide, this should be fine. How often do you clean the water dish? I usually take mine out once a week and give it a good rinse, and put fresh water in. Then I refresh the water every other day or so; mine like to get it really dirty!

There is a tiger salamander caresheet you should check out. This should help with any other questions you might have. Welcome to the forum!

 

[deadhead]

Ugh!! Not only did they tell us the wrong food, they sold us the XL size. Poor little guy probably felt like he was transplanted to a war zone...straight from a blizzard to fighting off giant crickets & meal worms. At least now we know and earth worms will be on the menu tomorrow. Thanks for the tip. As for water, we've cleaned it out every other day. I'll read through the care guide and hopefully get all the answers from there.
Thanks so much for taking the time to give me a clue. We really appreciate it and hopefully it will help Tigger to live a long, happy life!

 

[Kaysie]

That's what we're here for. Tigers hold a spot near and dear to my heart, so I hope your little dude does well. Let me know how the worms go over! If they're a little big, you can cut 'em in half. Half-worms can go back in the tub in the fridge.

 

[ilovesallies]

Ashley, Thanks for your post. Your not going to like what I am about to say, but here it is.
First and foremost you have taken an amphibian out of the environment where he has adjusted
for several weeks to the cold. Salamanders are not like warm blooded animals, in fact they are more towards the opposite. If the ground isn't frozen and they can bore down, they are fine. Tigers have been known to travel over snow quite happily. it can be winter with three feet of snow out and they could be hiding just under a log, where the ambient temperature is only 40 degrees. In Colorado you might have a warm flash and they will come out and travel, for whatever reason. These little guys are smarter than you think.

If your terrarium is over 69 degrees this tiger could die from thermal exhaustion, and trust me, then you will be very sad you ever took him from the wild. I know this from past experience myself, and at that point you wont be able to say you did what was right, because more than likely he would have survived in the cold. If you can't keep the environment he is in under 69 degrees he will not be healthy
and he has a chance of dying.

He probably isn't eating because he has thermal exhaustion now. Something else to try, only crickets, forget the worms and meal worms. As long as you dust them with vitamin and calcium powder he will get his nutrients from the first one. Don't worry about the other ones having the dust come off. His first one will likely have enough. Also, for his size, make sure they are medium to small. Not large. Ambystoma can live off gut loaded and powder coated crickets there entire lives. But again, the most
important thing is to keep him cold.

Have a basement? Basement temps can average under 65 degrees, esp in Colorado. If you just 'have' to keep him, that might be the best place. Some people keep them in the fridge, but I recommend going to the Ambystoma section here where there might be more info like that and care for tigers. Again if you have to keep him, maybe just through the winter? You could release in the spring, just don't introduce any other little animals to his enclosure because that might introduce foreign pathogens which could in turn infect the environment (other wild Tigers) when released. Also, I'm not sure about the tropical substrate. Although it's good for deterring germs, you might also consider getting local substrate from an area where you know no chemicals have been used for weeds for example. His immune system has already adjusted to it. Just old leaves and bark from indigenous trees., over barely any soil, even over damp non-bleached paper towels. You will need to change it out too, every three months or so if there is a half inch to an inch on the bottom. If you are using non-bleach paper towels, then once a week or two. Keep it clean and pick out the waste. Keep him acclimated for his own environment. That way you will have no problem releasing him. Always, and I mean ALWAYS keep the substrate moist. Spray it every day with spring water.

Also, Tigers do migrate. They all migrate, I believe in Colorado it's early spring and late fall, but not for sure. If they can't migrate they will be very unhappy. It's like someone telling you not to go out for a walk in the fresh air, or to meet someone new, (if you are single) ever. On the other hand, you could wait until the migrate season which someone here will know of, and let him go then. Or if you find an evening soon, where it has periodically warmed up in the evening, like say to 45-50 degrees as it can in Colorado, you could let him go then, anywhere around where you found him.

I'm really sorry to be a downer, I just have a lot of experience with this topic Ashley. Good luck.

 

[Kaysie]

Nick, I'm not sure I follow your "if they can't migrate, they won't be happy" theory. I've had 2 tigers for about 5 years, and they've never shown any signs of stress from an inability to migrate. Do you have any research to back this up?

And what is your reasoning behind recommending only 1/2 - 1 inch of soil? How on earth is a fossorial species suppose to burrow in half an inch of soil?

I've taken plenty of species from the wild. In fact, a majority of what I keep are wild-caught species, and I've never had any issues with 'thermal exhaustion' (whatever that means) from bringing an animal in from a cold environment to a warmer house. They are regularly subjected to drastic swings in temperature in the wild. As long as you're not habitually keeping the animal too warm, tigers (especially) adjust to captivity just fine.

 

[ilovesallies]

Hi Kaysie,
Thanks for conversing and expressing your concerns for my obvious arrogance.
Here's my more detailed and perhaps less arrogant concerns on the matter.

It's never easy for any of us who love these widdew guys to accept that by taking them
out of the wild and not allowing them to migrate and roam freely would cause stress.
After years I've finally learned to accept the truth. It does. I have learned that it's quite arrogant
and perhaps a denial for me to think otherwise. Although reports have held record of them living in captivity for over 12-15 years.

Take the spotted salamander for instance, what do they do during mating season?
They migrate. Migration occurs for the tiger Salamanders in Colorado during the seasons
of transition. I remember people posting about it here years ago. When
evidence is shown in nature that a species likes to migrate, well, it shows they like to migrate. Do you think that taking away the ability from a creature to roam freely would not cause stress? Do you think
because they show a smiling face at you all the time they are not stressed out? Sure allowing a burrowing animal a place to hide and burrow will help eliminate stress, but certainly not all of it.
Because a burrow is not all of their life cycle.

Here a similar, although different example. Have you watched The Cove? We used to think Dolphins were happy in captivity because they were smiling all the time. It wasn't until proper research was done that we learned they are in a GREAT DEAL of stress. Has anyone tried hooking electrodes to Tigers to test the stress levels? Maybe? I'd love to see the results.

Also, maybe think about this for a minute. If it was good for these types of animals to live in captivity
don't you think that by now, after all these years of people keeping amphibians in the wild that
they would be very easy to keep, and breed for that matter? But on average, how long do salamanders, on average, live in captivity in an average household? Why did that pet store give her inaccurate information on the case for a Tiger Salamander, one of the most popular salamander pets?

If it was so easy you would expect to see them everywhere. In pet stores, department stores, everywhere. But this is not the case. In fact, in the last ten years I have seen a considerable decrease in salamanders in pet stores. They are just too difficult (on average, not here) to keep alive. Why do you think states are passing laws to protect them in the wild so adamantly? Because with exception to a couple, maybe few of VERY talented people on this forum, it is very difficult to breed them, on average and generally speaking of course, and therefore very difficult for Fish and Wildlife to sustain a withering population. Not to be a downer, but lets face facts.

________________

As for the soil, well I guess if you're going to keep the animal for a long time, then by all means,
let them form a habitat. I was advertising the thought that maybe it would be considered as a temporary observation of the animal, therefore the easy to clean/maintain approach which has
worked well in research too.

________________

Thermal Exhaustion is a term I have heard (loosely perhaps) to describe what salamanders
go through when exposed to PROLONGED temperatures over their level of comfort where thermo regulation wears them out and they die. That's why there is documentation that states not to keep them over a certain temperature for prolonged amount of time. Notice I didn't say temperature spikes
which you are correct, do occur in nature and the little guys are geared to handle them.

 

[Kaysie]

I'm not sure I follow. Salamanders in captivity have a significantly longer lifespan than in the wild. It's not unheard of for caudates to live 30+ years in captivity, while in the wild, their lifespan is usually less than 10. This is obviously a sign that captivity causes longer lifespans. There, they have a well-balanced diet, never have to fight for food or go without because of conditions, have controlled environment, and a lack of predators. With a few special exceptions (and mostly due to disease found in those species), most caudates aren't hard to keep alive at all. With an appropriate amount of money for setups, you can keep just about anything. Even species notoriously hard to keep alive (I'm thinking the Central American arborial species) can be kept for years with the right amount of treatment for chytrid. So how is it that you think taking species into captivity makes them die faster? I don't follow that logic at all.

Do you know WHY species migrate? Breeding. It's not because they 'like' to migrate. If the breeding ponds are not available, they don't breed. If it's been too dry/cold/hot/wet/whatever, they won't migrate at all. I've seen two or three year stretches where there weren't any migrations to speak of. The animals don't curl up and die because they didn't go to the breeding pond that year.

Pet stores are looking to sell a product. That's what they do; they're a store. They want to make money. Either through ignorance or deception (and sometimes both), they sold her a food that is not as socially accepted as another. But they got their money, and that's what's important to most pet stores. But not every employee at every pet store knows how to care for every animal that has ever existed. Go into PetCo and ask them the range for Notopthalmus viridescens louisianiensis, and I bet they will stare at you in utter confusion.

As far as breeding is concerned, I'd say at least half the caudates available commonly in the pet trade are easy to breed. The rest aren't commonly kept as they're not 'pretty'. Therefore no one breeds them because they can't sell them (sidenote: that's probably why you don't find pets in a department store. I can't see the hoity-toity ladies at Macy's picking up a salamander to take home).

But if you want to talk facts about Fish and Wildlife, lets. Since I've worked for Fish and Wildlife on several high-profile Federally imperiled species projects (not just herps), I think I might know a thing or two about how they work. Did you know that most critically imperiled species are NOT protected by law? Look at Hellbenders. Or Cheat Mountain salamanders. Heck, in China, they eat Andrias! Most of the species that are protected by either state or Federal law are protected because of habitat loss or restricted ranges, not because they're not breeding.

Further, most species that are kept in captivity are not at risk of becoming endangered due to critical number loss (except perhaps N. kaiserii). Some commonly kept species are imperiled because of habitat loss, like axolotls. Their 'withering populations' are due to habitat loss, not a lack of breeding. And in fact, the 'withering populations' can be brought back in rebounding numbers by taking these species into captivity and breeding them. Look at axolotls. They're CITES Appendix II, meaning they're critically endangered. They were endemic to two lakes in Mexico. One lake ceases to exist, while the other is a hodge-podge of introduced species and manmade sewage. But (interbreeding with other Ambystomatids aside) there are millions of axolotls in the world! It's not because of withering populations, but lack of habitat. And had people not taken those original axolotls from that lake, there would probably be none at all.

Or if we want to go beyond caudates, we can look at the Kihansi Spray Toad. A dam was built across the river leading to the waterfall which moistened the spray toad habitat. Spray toad populations dwindled to less than 200 individuals. These individuals were collected down to the last animal. They were sent to Detroit Zoo, and then Toledo Zoo, where thousands upon thousands of spray toads have been bred. Their habitat is now being restored, and they're going to reintroduce them!

But 'smiling faces' anthropomorphical observations about 'widdew guys' aside, do you have any research to back up your theory that lack of migration causes stress leading to a decreased life span? Personal observations are great, and have led to a lot of great things, but projecting your observation across an entire Order of animals without research to back it up is a dangerous move. You continue to say 'lets talk facts', but have yet to bring up any facts, just observations.

 

[ilovesallies]

Kaysie,
You've given me a lot to consider. Thanks. Just a couple more questions though.

First, because I simply don't know the answer to this, are the populations of Tiger salamanders
in colorado dwindling?

Second because I sinply don't know the answer to this either, has this particular species of tiger been succesfully bread in captivity?

Third, did I break any forum rules in previous posts? Just wondering why you changed my account
settings to not recieve email notifications to updates in this thread without informing me first if I had
done anything wrong?

Forth, consider this scenario. Joe goes to jail. Joe lives longer in prison than he would have lived
in the streets. Question, if Joe had the preference, do you think he would prefer living in the streets
or in prison? I know it's just personal observation, but from what I can tell, I think Joe would have preferred being left alone. However, like you mentioned, it would be best in Joe's circumstance if he was not a
criminal and instead was being taken in to breed with Miss Joe to preserve his species. That I might
give you. But I'm still not convinced it's okay to remove a being (that isn't threatened) from it's habitat,
not knowing wether or not that being wants it or not. In human terms, and for humans, its against our
own rights. Why do we treat animals that we do not depend on for our own survival any different? From
a hindu (since I have Hindu Vegetarian friends I talk to about this a lot) standpoint as well, Why do we treat animals any different. Why do we feel it's okay? Why is it okay for you or me or anyone to say it's okay because under my care, they live longer and are better off in the habitat I provide for them?
(besides preserving a species).

 

[Kaysie]

I didn't touch your account settings. I don't have that authority. I take offense to you suggesting I did.

Tiger salamanders in most areas are fairly stable, and if declining are doing so because of habitat loss, and occasionally to introduced species (as Ambystoma californiense hybridization shows). They actually do well in some agricultural areas because of farm ponds built for cattle.

Yes, tiger salamanders have been successfully bred in captivity on multiple occasions. To my knowledge, Japanese and German breeders produced at least F2 generations, if not F3.

For some people, prison is a preference over life on the street. Maybe Joe WOULD prefer to go to prison versus living on the street. Some homeless people commit petty crimes in the winter in order to land in jail for a couple of months while it's cold. 3 hots and a cot beats a cardboard box behind CostCo. But humans are hardly dwindling in population and need no help breeding.

But speaking of 'wants', I don't think lower vertebrates are capable of that level of consciousness. They don't 'want'. They have needs: eating, breeding, staying alive. Their actions are driven to fulfill those needs.

As for whether or not it's okay to keep animals in captivity, that's a personal judgment call. Obviously you think it is, or you wouldn't have pets at all.

 

[ilovesallies]

oh, on the email it says
"There may also be other replies, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again."
I thought since you are moderator you put that in there. I guess you didn't

thanks for the info on the Ambystoma mavortium. good to know.

I'll agree to disagree with you about Joe, and the animals in captivity comment.

this has gone on long enough.

cheers.