Paramesotriton or Cynops...

[hugo]

hai everybody,

I don't know my firebelly's that well. still, i obtained 2 of them from someone who didn't know wich species it was. I'm trying to find out what i have swimming in my aquarium

i have some blurry pictures but that's the best i can do,..sorry..

the biggest is 14 cm, the smaller one(clearly male) is just 9 cm, both have skin like phyrrogaster. Because of the size difference, is it possible i have two different species?? who knows what species i'm dealing with??

notice the distuingise difference in build

 

[chris]

The v-shaped cranial ridge (I think I see one) would indicate Paramesotriton hongkongensis (which has the smoother skin). Have you any other pics - from the side and/or belly?
If the belly is a black-brown base colour with orange blotches, it is Paramesotriton but if the base colour is red-orange with black spots it is cynops.
Chris

 

[danny]

Chris you are right, you can just see the v shaped cranial ridges, I would have to say P hongkongensis. The shorter one is certainly quite robust

 

[hugo]

hey guys,

this ia a pic of the belly. they have the same bellypatern.

i guess this would make them both paramesotriton hongkongensis,...

do you think the smaller one is weird(disformed) or are there this big of differences in the species paramesotriton hongkongensis??

greetz,
Hugo

 

[Jennewt]

For hongkongensis, the ratio of body:tail length is sometimes an indicator of gender. However, it's the females that are supposed to have the shorter tail relative to body length. I'm guessing that the fellow in the lower half of the first photo perhaps lost his tail and has regrown it - it really looks abnormally short.

By the way, how do you know the lower one is male? Hongkongensis are notoriously difficult to distinguish, unless the male gets the blue-white tail sheen.

 

[jesper]

The upper one looks like P.hongkongensis for sure.
I'm not so sure about the lower one, need some clearer dorsal photos of that one.
The lower one has lost it tail for sure just like Jen says, it might be a subadult.

 

[hugo]

hey jennewt

I just figured it was a male because of the fact that it has a big cloaca... i thought it would be the same as in triturus.
I guess I still have to learn a lot about the firebellys

both of them don't have the tail-sheen, maybe it will develop when it is time for them to..

jesper,... i'll show another pic, not a great one, but maybe i't will do..

at the moment i don't have any better ones,..sorry

 

[chris]

A large, swollen cloaca means a male. A large, but 'volcano-shaped' cloaca indicates breeding female. In this respect, they are very similar to Triturus in sex determination. I disagree with Jennewt (sorry

) in that females have the longer, narrower tail in proportion to body length and are generally more robust in build. However, in the case of an abnormality in tail length, this wouldn't help too much. The 'weird' one looks compressed throughout its entire length, but not proportionally slimmer. However, if its healthy I wouldn't worry too much.
Generally, Paramesotriton males develop the tail sheen in Autumn or Spring (depending on species - hongkongensis supposedly breeds in Autumn in the wild) when they are provided with good conditions and only a slight temperature fluctuation. My fuzhongensis tank only drops about 5deg C from the hottest temp in the year to the coldest temp, but its is enough to stimulate breeding. Don't make them so cold as Triturus in Winter. They don't hibernate. Cool them to about 15-16degC in winter, then just over 20 (say 21-22) in the height of summer. Hongkongensis are reputedly slightly more warm-loving than some other Paramesotriton species.
Chris

 

[jesper]

I think both of them are hongkongensis.

 

[chris]

yes, definately both hongkongensis
Chris

 

[hugo]

hai guys,
Thank you all for your help!

Chris, thank you for the the extra information.

great that there is a forum used globally!!

greetz,
Hugo

 

[jennifer]

You're right Chris, it's the females that have the longer tails. Thanks for the heads up. That's what I get for using second-hand information filtered through my own poor memory. I also corrected this in the sexing article on Caudata Culture. I had a pair of hongkongensis, but they had no obvious difference in relative tail length.

 

[chris]

My pleasure, Jen

In my experience, there are some differences in the cloaca. I think I posted a very bad illustration of the differences before...I will try and find it...
Chris

 

[chris]

Here we go...the top two are female, the bottom two male. The top of each pair is out of breeding season, the second in breeding season.
The female's vent is positioned behind the back legs, but the male's goes slightly between the back legs. This is certainly true of fuzhongensis and caudopunctatus. Its hard to explain, as you can probably tell, but there are slight differences.
Chris