Paramesotriton ID Please!!!

[aimee]

I came across these four lovely Paramesotriton adults today in my local pet shop. I know impulse buying is very bad but I couldn't pass up an offer like this! Anyway, three of them are the same species, one is the odd one out being another different but very pretty paramesotriton. Two are definatly male, one being the odd one out, and I *Think* the other two are female as they have no colours, spots, marks or stripes of blue on their tails. The two *females* are also bigger than the male and don't have the obvious swollen cloaca. Here goes:

The first *female(?)*:

 

[aimee]

 

[aimee]

Female 2:

 

[aimee]

 

[aimee]

 

[aimee]

(the above is male 100% sure)

This one I'm not sure about species: Definatly male.

 

[aimee]

 

[aimee]

SOrry for the huge and bad pics, I was in a huge rush. Please ID them for me some one!

 

[chris]

The last (odd one out) one is paramesotriton caudopunctatus. The rest are fuzhongensis or a similar species. These two have recently been imported in large numbers from Guanxi province (I think that's the name) so they could also be guanxiensis.
They look healthy, but beware of fungal infections (mainly around the mouth from fishinghooks/rubbing) and a nasty and very virulent ulcerating. It may be a good idea to get hold of some baytril and nystan (antifungal and anti bacterial in that order) from the vets just to be prepared.
Once they start eating they are very hardy. I would keep the caudo separate and watch for aggression between males.
In the aquarium DON'T provide a very fast current, and also put in some egeria or something similar. If you are lucky the female may be gravid or may lay eggs...

Good luck with them!
Chris

 

[chris]

Oh yeah, have you got any shots of their tails from the SIDE?
Chris

 

[aimee]

Hi Chris
Thanks for the help and advice.. =)
I was pretty sure the last one was P.caudopunctatus thanks to the help of caudata culture's pictures!
The other three I'm still not sure about, I agree with you they are most likely to be P.fuzhongensis but they kind of remind me of hongkongensis aswell.
Thanks for the care info. I will mail you soon for more advice!
The males tails are impressive. The caudopunctatus tail is really nice, lots of small bright spotting and orangey cream bits. the fuzhongensis has a gorgeous blue stripe running along most of its tail in the middle. There is slighty silver bits too and no spotting. The females tails are plain coloured and the same as their backs. I have noticed very very pale rings on the tails but I am pretty sure they are not male. They are about half an inch bigger in length and generally have a bigger, bulkier build than the male who is small but again quite chunky.

 

[chris]

Not hongkongensis (see http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/12258.html?1077896258 )
Sometimes males just don't have the blue sheen when they are bought. I would watch closely for sheens. Is the tail relatively longer or shortwer than snout to vent length, is it 'high' or low finned?
Chris

 

[a]

All of the pics except the last 2 look like fuzhongensis, i have a males exactly that colour on top. however mine have orange spots underneith instead of red.
The males all have a slightly higher and more defined ridge, and as chris said, they have a shother and higher tail.
None of mine have a belly like the second to last pic, they all generally have two rows or orangey red splodges , sometimes with the hint of grey in between.
Good luck with them, mine have been very rewarding, allthough the hardest bit is getting them started. I keep mine with quite a powerful current and they seem to thrive in it. There is also a deep substrate of washed slate chips. I hardly ever have to clean out their 36" aquarium which has been supporting 6 (now 7) for a year now. Try to avoid as much stress as possible, they are very shy to start with, but now mine will always come out and attempt to eat my hand on sight!

AJfr0ggy

 

[chris]

Mine did OK with a strong current, but it is only since I stopped this that they have started to breed.
This is the habitat of p. deloustali, which shows how sluggish the water in paramesotriton habitat is.
Chris

This pic is from the German magazine Elaphe.

 

[jesper]

Hey Chris,
How do you tell the difference between fuzhongensis/guanxiensis and chinensis?
I just bought a couple and one of them looks like chinensis to me and the other like fuzhongensis.
But the one that I thought was chinensis looks exactly like the one here....
The other one, presumed to be fuzhongensis, has a much broader head, bigger glands and it is brownish with darkbrown areas on the back(or dorsal if we want to be scientific).

(Message edited by jesper on March 10, 2004)

 

[chris]

Jesper
Chinensis - two forms from different populations. One is black/dark brown, fairly warty with yellow spots on the base of limbs. Belly id usually yellow or yellow orange. Other form is a greeny grey putty colour. Sometimes has small balck blotches.
Fuzhongensis and guanxiensis are both very wart, brown and their tails go mottled at the end. The bellies have largish irregular spots (look like crazy paving). Guanxiensis' head is broader than fuzhongensis. I am not sure which species are being imported now, apart from caudopunctatus. Guanxiensis is only known from the type locality, and may just be a subspecies of fuzhongensis (found in two type localities). Both these species are found in Guanxi Autonomous region.

Frankly, it is very difficult to tell the animals apart, and nigh on impossible without photos. I think that your best bet is to just put animals together which look similar (be very picky about this).
Have you got any pics of them?

Chris

 

[jesper]

Nah, I don't have photos yet - I will probably be getting a camera in the next couple of weeks though....have been saying that for a while now....

The above animal seems to be of pretty greeny grey putty colour to me....
Cannot fuzzies be green too??

Why did you think that the above animal was a fuzzie then? I still think it is a chinensis...

From pictures I have seen I have gotten the impression that chinensis have slimmer heads than fuzhongensis, is this an established fact?

I have one female(fuzhongensis or guanxiensis) and one male(chinensis or fuzhongensis). The female has a remarkably broad head and is a perfect match for your description. It would be cool if she is guanxiensis.

 

[chris]

Jesper look at these pics http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/12064.html?1076433217 . The top one is the greeny colour I was talking about. They are less warty than the newt up top of this thread. Basically, that newt at the top of this thread is what I have got used to as fuzhongensis, from various pics in mainly German magazines/papers. Although I call my own animals fuzhongensis I think that they are actually too big, the male being nearly 7 incheslong...
Also the pics of chinensis on the link above have distinctly longer, narrower heads which are much more 'rectangular' than the chisel shaped heads of 'fuzhongensis'...all little details someone should compile.
What really needs to be done is some field work with animals so that we know exactly what they are...
Chris

 

[jesper]

Ok, now I have understood that it is almost impossible to diffrentiate between them in some cases without belly shots. The difference in belly shots are very clear:

Fuzhongensis/guanxiensis have large red blotches separated by a black background. The black background area is much SMALLER than the total area of the red blotches.

Chinensis have small red blotches separated by a black background. The black background area is much LARGER than the total area of the red blotches.

Is this observation correct?