Panacur or Flagyl with Tigers?

[John]

Has anyone dosed tiger salamanders with panacur or flagyl? If so, were there any bad results? I have two wild collected males of known locality that are likely carrying a parasite load. The dosage doesn't concern me since we seem to have a lot of precedent on the forum but side effects specific to Ambystomatids do concern me. Also, does anyone know if lungworms are common parasites of North American salamanders?

 

[sherylbobbins]

Hi John. I'm not sure if this will be relevent but I've had axolotls dosed with flagyl and there appeared to be no bad side effects.

 

[herpvet]

Has anyone dosed tiger salamanders with panacur or flagyl? If so, were there any bad results? I have two wild collected males of known locality that are likely carrying a parasite load. The dosage doesn't concern me since we seem to have a lot of precedent on the forum but side effects specific to Ambystomatids do concern me. Also, does anyone know if lungworms are common parasites of North American salamanders?

Hi John,

I think I've only dosed one tiger salamander with flagyl, but I'd have little hesitation using panacur or flagyl at normal doses if I thought there was a need. I would suggest getting the faeces checked out before treatment though, both so you know what you're dealing with and approximate levels of any problems.

Not sure about prevalence of lungworms in North American salamanders, would be interested in any answers too!

Bruce.

 

[John]

Thanks Bruce. I don't have the facilities (or the money) to get the faeces checked. Intestinal parasites are par for the course with wild tiger salamanders around here though. One of the males is particularly thin and it's not for lack of appetite. I was going to dose with panacur by injecting it into a waxworm at 50 mg per kilo. I believe you do it twice, about 10 days apart? What do you think?

 

[Jan]

I've not had to treat my tigers with either fenbendazole or metronidazole. Panacur would seem to be a reasonable choice for empiric treatment in that it is often used prophylactically during quarantine - without documented organism(s), however, it is still a 'shot in the dark'.

By way of curiosity, why might you be considering a 50mg/Kg dose of Panacur? For what little it is worth as I am not a vet, I might consider an oral dose of 100mg/kg and dose twice, separated by 10-14 days. That dose is reportedly safe in amphibs. I might wonder with lower dosing (not administered daily) if it may lead to resistance....if you truly have nematodes. The other thought, however, is that if there is a large nematode load, parasite death could lead to an inflammatory response with adverse sequelae.

With empiric therapy, there is always risk as you don’t know what you are really treating.

 

[John]

Well my primary concern is that there significant numbers of non-gut parasites (hey I have no idea really) that would kill the tiger(s) when they die due to the sudden high amount of necrotic tissue.

 

[oceanblue]

I've no practical experience in amphibians with either of these preparations but they target very different parasites. (I've used Flagil a lot in humans and occasionally analogues of Panacur.)

If you think you are dealing with gut nematodes or lungworms then Panacur is the preferred drug and I'd be tempted to try it first. Metronidazole works better on amoebae, protozoa and a wide range of anaerobic bacteria.

Inflammatory reactions to killed organisms are a problem in lung parasites and worms embedded in tissue in mammals but I don't have a clue if they will be a problem in tiger salamanders which have a rather different immune system.

I suspect Bruce is far better informed than me! Good luck.

 

[John]

Thank you. I don't have flagyl but I know it is somewhat effective against gut parasites too. Panacur is what I have.

 

[herpvet]

Thanks Bruce. I don't have the facilities (or the money) to get the faeces checked. Intestinal parasites are par for the course with wild tiger salamanders around here though. One of the males is particularly thin and it's not for lack of appetite. I was going to dose with panacur by injecting it into a waxworm at 50 mg per kilo. I believe you do it twice, about 10 days apart? What do you think?

Hi John,

Published dose rates of panacur vary widely, and despite it being a relatively very safe drug there are reports of toxicity issues in reptiles at least. I would go with that dose (50 mg/kg), about 2 weeks apart.

The point about inflammation is also relevant; if there is a significant parasite load, inflammatory reaction can be fatal. Common in hedgehogs with lungworms, for whom I would always give anti-inflammatory drugs and antibiotic cover before and after worming medications. This might be worth considering if you feel there is likely to be a significant extra-gut parasite load, although I'm not aware of any reports of such problems in amphibians off-hand.

I tend to use flagyl in herps for gut protozoal overgrowth; a low level of gut flagellates is normal, but, especially in lizards, they can multiply out of control if the animal is stressed. For that purpose a one-off dose of flagyl at 50 mg/kg can knock the population back and help the guts get back in balance, in theory. However, if not acutely ill i would now tend to try probiotics for a few days before resorting to flagyl. Panacur also affects some gut protozoa.

The problem with any drug affecting gut flora is that it can upset the balance; you eliminate one type of organism, which empties a niche and may allow a different type to overgrow. Less of an issue with carnivores like amphibians than with herbivores, but still potentially an problem.

Summary on my view; if the animals aren't in acute danger, probiotics alone may be worth trying for a few days. If severely underweight or otherwise ill, go with the panacur at 50 mg/kg, preferably with antibiotic and anti-inflammatory cover.

Don't know if it's feasible for you, but may be worth trying to establish contact with an interested vet, or even see if there are any local researchers who do, or might do, post-mortem exams on wild sals to evaluate common parasites?

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

 

[John]

Hi Bruce,

That's quality information. Thank you. When you say probiotics, what do you mean specifically?

Best wishes,

-John

 

[herpvet]

Hi Bruce,

That's quality information. Thank you. When you say probiotics, what do you mean specifically?

Best wishes,

-John

Hi John,

Gut microorganisms, usually with prebiotics etc. Not sure about brands available in the states - lacto B9 (Genitrix) or avipro plus (Vetark) are the ones here.

Theory is that they are beneficial, or at least neutral, microorganisms that compete with (hopefully out-compete) potentially harmful gut microorganisms (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotics for more detail in humans).

Hope this helps.

Bruce.