Paedomorphic T. marmoratus? [ warning heavy pics]

[eljorgo]

Today I came across with this amazing individual totally different to what i´ve seen in my breedings. I have breed twice this lovely specie and I had my first morphs some days ago. In none of them i had a larva with such a rich coloration before metamorphosis like in this one. Not even when the gills were almost vanish. This individual, not to mention having a strong coloration, haves an astonishing pair of gill buds with alpha pair of gills passing 1cm in length! Its an amazing animal, a serious treat for the eyes. I wish I had a macro lenses but this was what i could dig up...

Side marking with many big circular dots instead of usual dense small irregular markings.

In Triturus genus neoteny is possible (T.cristatus) and relative genus like Lissotriton and Mesotriton also have this kind of adaptation, but even so I never heard of any Paedomorphic marmoratus...
So, could this fella really be a Paedomorph?
What really keeps amazing me are the size of the gills... Waw
Cheers,

Jorge

 

[Azhael]

What a nice looking chap!
I´ve seen pictures of true neotenic T.pygmaeus, but i´ve never even heard mention of it happening in T.marmoratus. Of course, it should be possible.
However, i don´t think that larva is neotenic. The body morphology is not right. It´s not unusual for a larva of this species to attain a big size, develop the juvenile coloration and still retain the gills. However, they all morph eventually. Good news is that it might morph with a size of 7-8 cm wich is indeed very nice.

 

[PereJosa]

Hello

In a field, i see Marmoratus, with espectacular coloration like to adult (more than your pic's), with gills in water! but it's juvenile. for example i see one year ago in august (i hace the photo, but where?). but i see many many marm's in the field every year and it's not common.
I'm not read anything about neotenic Marm's in spanish literature (only in pygmeus) or classics book like (Griffits 1996).

Adeu

 

[raptor86]

Hey, beautifull individual...to make him neotenic you should try to keep the water temperature at a constant level, reduce the light intensity and lower the temperature if you can....also you should keep him well fed and never feed him earthworms freshly taken from the earth, you should cut them in small pieces (if you feed him earthworms).
I studied paedomorfism on L vulgaris ampelensis and the larvae fed with tiny earthworms morphed first....i induced pseudomorfism in 2 larvae L vulgaris that reached 4,5 cm before morphing an one is 5 cm and still not morphed....

If what i know is true:
- paedomorphism- the newt delays his metamorphosis growing bigger, retaining gills and his larvae appearance, but still morphs later; (when the environement conditions change);
-neotenic- the newt reaches a point where he will never morph, even if the environement conditions change (the pond dryes up, there is no food) retaining larvae apeareance all his life;

 

[Azhael]

Not really.
Paedomorphism applied to caudates would mean that an individual reaches sexual maturity earlier in the development than would be normal.
Neoteny, on the other hand, would mean the retention of larval/juvenile characteristics into the adult, sexually mature individual.

Metamorphosis can be forced on any neotenic caudate, the problem lies on wether the animal survives it or not.

The fact that a larva reaches a big size before morphing is not a sign of neoteny. Not, unless there is sexual differentiation and reproductive maturity.

I would be thankful if you could elaborate on your study. I´ve certainly never heard of earthworms having an influence on true neotenic animals, although other foods containing big amounts of iodine do. They can have an effect on larval size, since a good diet usually means bigger larvae.

 

[raptor86]

I had 3 L vulgaris larvae the same size kept separated......
-the first was fed dafnia and tiny earthworms and morphed first at 48 days and 2,5 cm...
-the second one was fed dafnia and choped earthworms and had at 72 days 4,5 cm and no sign of morphing...i gave him 2 hole tiny whole earthworms and he morphed in 4 days..i think the ingestion of earth from the earthworm makes a advanced larvae morph quickly..
-the third one was fed dafnia and choped earthworms (small pieces) and has 84 days and 5 cm...it's prety big for a L vulgaris larvae and shows no sign of morphing...if i keep the environement conditions at a constant level (temp, water quality, food and oxigen) he can become neotenic..

 

[eljorgo]

They look amazing Raptor. Thank you for your contributions. After all my marmoratus ended up as a metamorph as usually.
thanks,

Jorge

 

[Logan]

I am curious to see if this particular larvae retained its larval form and became truly neotenic. I know that neoteny is very common in areas where there is less competition for food and ideal space in aquatic habitats that will not dry up. This hasn't been shown in many species but it could simply be because during some seasons food availability is low in their natural larval aquatic habitats and most salamanders breed in vernal pools leaving them no choice but to morph. If these species that normally are bred in these conditions had a constant environment maybe that would change. So without competition and regular food availability and a constant high quality of water and depth I would say in most species it should be coded in their genetics to become neotenic. Please update if possible.

 

[eljorgo]

Logan, It morphed long time ago. With great size indeed. Thanks for interest. I agree what you wrote. After all its something easy to understand If you compare for example Stream salamanders with Pond type salamanders (in breeding/larval aspects)
Like P. ruber and A. maculatum for instance.

 

[Logan]

Thanks for the quick response. I am very interested in studies of neoteny so I just like to see what keepers have experienced. Sometimes keepers find out things researchers never knew on accident. Also I love your avatar great picture
Logan