Noob questions Plz help

[fallenangelfyre]

Hello all,
been lurking for a while. first time posting, and of course it's noob questions that have probably been answered a million times. but alas, i can't find them using the search tool.

anyway,
i have a standard 29 gal tank that will fit on the bottom shelf of my crested gecko display tank and have been brainstorming for a few months on what to do with it. i really wanted something aquatic as i keep alot of cresties & leos so i have plenty of terrestrial vivaria. just plain ol' fish tanks are just that- plain ol' and aquatic turtles generally require way to much space and maintenance, so i discovered axolotl's! i have been researching, brainstorming, & lurking on forums and have come up with a solid plan. but i have two questions first-

question 1:
-is a standard 29 gal tank large enough to house two adults?
in my research i have learned that they are social creatures and though they don't require it, i never deprive social pets of friends. but on the other hand there is a chance of cannibalism (mostly in juvies) and though i've read that one adult can be housed in a 10 gal, so it goes to figure 2 adults in a 29 should be fine, a standard 29 doesn't have the greatest surface area which benefits axies as they are more designed for fish.


question 2:
-would an eheim 2217 canister filter be overkill for a 29 gal, or create too much current for axies?
i'm not really all that worried about the current issue. though it is apparently the number one cause of stress, i can drill more/larger holes in the drip bar, and i've brainstormed a modification to my backround that will greatly restrict the current created by the return. but there is such a thing as over-filtered water, so is one overkill for 2 axies in a 29 gal?


for reference i'm planning on doing a hybrid substrate of a thin layer of sand underneath a layer of river rock. as heavily planted as i can get with one 5500k T8 (since they don't like light) on a 12 hour cycle. i'm going to do a styrofoam/grout backround similar to this. i am fairly well schooled in faux backrounds as i have done several for terrestrial vivaria.

thanks all! sorry for the long-winded what-not-

 

[carsona246]

1. Axolotls are not social creatures, that is misinformation. People are anthropomorphizing, which is fine, but inaccurate. Keeping an axolotl by itself is not depriving it at all. A 29 gallon tank would be pushing it in my opinion, I'd shoot for a bigger tank for 2 axolotls.
2. It depends, I use a marineland C220 in my 40 breeder, and have the input covered by a sponge and have the output covered by a cut waterbottle and have my plant roots buffering the water flow. This works just fine in my tank. There is no such thing as an over filtered tank, only too much current for the fish/salamander inhabiting the tank.

 

[xxianxx]

1. Axolotls are not social creatures, that is misinformation. People are anthropomorphizing, which is fine, but inaccurate.
.

This is your opinion and not fact.

 

[Kaysie]

Actually, that is a fact. Axolotls are not social by nature. They don't seek out companionship of other axolotls in the wild just for the sake of 'hanging out'.

 

[xxianxx]

Actually, that is a fact. Axolotls are not social by nature. They don't seek out companionship of other axolotls in the wild just for the sake of 'hanging out'.

Could you show which wild observational studies you are quoting from please ?

 

[fishcakey]

Calm down people. Maybe she just wants an excuse to get two axolotls! 29 would be acceptable, but it's not really the gallons that matter (of course you do need about 10 gallons per axolotl so the biology of the tank doesn't get out of funk), just the floor space. If you keep them in a 29 just be sure to have a lot of hiding places, about 5 would really be the minimum number of hiding places.

 

[Kaysie]

There have been no observational studies on wild axolotls that has proved they have a social structure at all. Do they interact with each other? Absolutely. Do they act differently around other axolotls? Sometimes. Do they need each other for companionship? No.

By using your logic, I can say that there have never been any studies to prove the non-existance of unicorns, therefore they must exist.

Regarding the initial question posted here: a 29 tall has the same footprint as a 20-long, so it's adequate for two small adults. If your adults are monstrously large, you'll need a bigger tank.

 

[xxianxx]

There have been no observational studies on wild axolotls that has proved they have a social structure at all. Do they interact with each other? Absolutely. Do they act differently around other axolotls? Sometimes. Do they need each other for companionship? No.

By using your logic, I can say that there have never been any studies to prove the non-existance of unicorns, therefore they must exist.

Resorting to insults is beneath a moderator on this forum and I would not have posted in this thread again but for that as we are going off topic, I merely asked you to back up your statement that in the wild axolotls dont seek out each other for company. Any wild observational studies would shown what their actual behavior is and the conclusions could be drawn from that. You could have cited actual studies rather than bringing unicorns into the matter.
This forum is the best source of axolotl information you can find on the net, from their biology, genetics, husbandry, breeding etc, a ready source of information from qualified professionals to breeders with decades of experience , people who who can rightly be considered experts. What is lacking however is anyone who claims to be a wild axolotl behavioral expert, the study of wild axolotl behavior is now probably impractical as there are so few left and any studies on captive axolotls may not be indicative of wild behavior. In general I would actually agree with you that axolotls are not social animals but I have occasionally observed behavior in my own axolotls that casts doubt on such a blanket statement.

 

[carsona246]

I don't think there's anything intentionally insulting in there. Pointing out flaws in logic is just how a discussion goes. It happens to the best of us.

 

[Kaysie]

The behavior of axolotls in a very confined area of say, a fishtank, is not indicative of how they act in the wild. They are forced to interact in captivity because there's literally no other place to go. It's like jail. There is no possible way we can recreate their natural environment in captivity, short of building a giant swimming pool for our pets.

 

[NooNoo Kz]

but but unicorns do exist!!!
until they prove me wrong....

 

[xxianxx]

The behavior of axolotls in a very confined area of say, a fishtank, is not indicative of how they act in the wild. They are forced to interact in captivity because there's literally no other place to go. It's like jail. There is no possible way we can recreate their natural environment in captivity, short of building a giant swimming pool for our pets.

I agree 100% that captive behavior may not necessarily bear any relation to wild behaviour. It has been said by various knowledgeable people in this forum that the captive axolotl has essentially been domesticated, to the extent that the captive stock would be problematical to reintroduce to the wild, which may in it self be indicative that the captive axolotl has changed its behavior. We have also changed the axolotls appearance and by placing it in an artificial environment for generations we may inadvertently changed its behavior by the following means. 1. An axolotl which shows continued aggression to tank mates may end up being isolated and therefore less likely to breed. 2.An axolotl stressed by the close proximity of others may suffer stress related illnesses and/or be less inclined than an axolotl with a neutral or positive attitude to being around other axolotls to breed.
Either of these could cause captive axolotls top develop a more positive attitude to the presence of others over a number of generations, especially when added to the lack of competition for food or hiding spaces. Obviously this is pure theorizing and I welcome any comments which could clarify the matter.
However turning to the matter at hand Kaysie you made a statement concerning wild axolotl behavior, when I asked you to cite your source for this "fact" I genuinely expected a knowledgeable and informative answer based on scientific research. You are one of several people in this forum whose posts I pay particular attention to and I am disappointed that you felt the need to try and belittle and disregard my question.

 

[Kaysie]

I never intended it to be belittling. My apologies.

But with your last post, you raise a valid concern. Is social behavior rooted in nature (genetics) or nurture (mental)?

I'm not a developmental biologist. I don't know if you can breed sociability into a previously non-social species. But the arguments you provide are compelling. I see a degree coming out of a project like that.

 

[xxianxx]

I think the problem of comparing wild verses domestic axolotl behavior would be establishing a baseline of wild natural behavior and though modern techniques of tracking and filming would probably be up to the job, the present low numbers of wild axolotls may make it impractical. The study of wc axolotls watched under laboratory conditions may give accurate information but the question would about wether the observed behavior is genuinely wild behavior would remain. I have seen very little information about wild behavior online and would be interested in any studies that have been done and if anyone could point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.
Wether personality traits such as aggression levels, activity levels, sociability etc are fixed in axolotl genetics I am completely unqualified to comment. It would be interesting to find wether any breeders have bred axolotls for personality rather than colour morphs and what their results actually were.
One source of information on axolotl behavior which appears to have been overlooked is the fishermen who have hunted them for generations. A successful hunter of any animal may be able to provide insights into both the behavior and psychology of his prey.