No newts in water...for MONTHS

[suztor]

Alright please check over my old thread that I started a while ago when I thought my problem was water depth.

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...r-help/78839-max-depth-cynops-orientalis.html

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The short-ish version:

Built awesome background from pink foam, great stuff and cement and aquarium grade silicone
Built in compartments that allow for several kinds of filtration (I'm indecisive/change my mind a lot... i like options)
Was using a cooling system ( Using a submersible pond pump and that clear plastic tubing)
Introduced 2 adults(CFBN C/H.Orientalis) in early September and the other 3 small adult & 2 aquatic juveniles about a month later (after they showed they were in fact aquatic)
No one goes for a 'swim' they hang out near the edges of the water but never submerged.

My trouble shooting process:

• Thought the filter was causing too much current; current drastically reduced (no newts in water)
• Thought water level was a problem. lowered it for about 2 weeks to about 6 inch depth (no newts in water)
• Thought Cooling system/filter caused a lot of vibration causing newts to not go in water so I turned it off. (no newts in water)
• Thought Lights were scaring them turned them off for a week (no newts in water)
• Thought there wasn't enough stuff on the surface: got plants and floating stuff (no newts in water)
• Replaced power pump filtration system with air pump filter, since I had removed the power pump ( sponge, carbon, bio surface stuff) (No newts in water)
• Thought bubbles were too big reduced airflow slowing bubbles. (no newts in water)
• Tried 3 different set ups for air driven pump. (No newts in water)
• Tried with and without guppies checking water livability - no dead guppies

I go to work on today, mull over it all day long, drew pictures of different filters, come home get mad, put all 5 in a cycled 10 gallon in the garage.... within an hour 3 of 5 are in the water hunting some black worms.

All water parameters are the same from inside 20 gal tank and garage 10 gal.. only difference is water temperature. Inside tank between 62-68 F and outside more like 58-60 and that i'm only using an air stone, no filter

SERIOUSLY! ARGH!!!!!! but I'm also happy that that confirms there is nothing wrong with the newts.
Even up until this point everyone eats and is an ok weight.

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'What could be wrong' Ideas:
I built the tank with cement, I didn't seal it with any kind of epoxy or anything... could be leeching lime? but PH is the same as when it comes out of the tap.

After removing the tubing that went with the cooling/filter system I didn't do a significant water change after that only 10%
Could the tubing have leached chemicals into the water?it was all slimy.

In my set up I used brass screws and zinc plated steel to hold in a cover to the filter system. they weren't in contact with the water until I started using an air driven filter Could that be a culprit?

Could it be the filter? Do I really need to relinquish any kind of filtration and keep to only an air stone (I really really hate the idea of that)

GAAAH I'm at a bit of a loss I could go in and try to fix all of these things but then I will just think of more. So I put it out to everyone else.... HELP!!! I spent a whole lot of money on the build and now my newts wont use it! Discarding it and starting over is not an option.

And I will have to come up with some sort of cooling when the summer arrives but that is a later problem.

 

[Molch]

I dunno, that's a lots of variables, but my guess would be the filter. These are pond-type newts and they can easily get weirded out by any kind of current.

I'd try without - you really don't need a filter. If you have good dense growth of live plants (which the newts love, btw) and turkey-baster up leftovers with occasional partial water changes, then your water quality will be okay.

I use a sponge filter in many of my tanks - t creates a slow bubble much like an open air hose and hasn't bothered any of my newts.

 

[suztor]

Although not entirely filterless. I've played with the idea of the planted tank. Any suggestions as far as substrate? My big issue is black worms... Those suckers escape in to the sand no matter what I try!

Are they really that terrible to have as a co inhabitant of my tank?

I have used flourite sand for plants and that rocked but I've heard mixed reviews in use for salamanders. I'm actually considering an ADA Substrate, with sand overtop newts aren't really diggers so I think I could handle that but my problem is if those worms will be a problem.

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[Azhael]

If water quality is ok, temperature is ok and the animal is not subject to an stressful environment, then my guess would be the filter, too.
If the kind of plants you have are surface floating ones, those won´t really help. You need submerged plants that reach the surface and offer them a place to partially support their weight while in the water. You shouldn´t be afraid of going filterless if you have a large amount of plants, it´s entirely redundant.

If substrate is an issue because of the blackworms, my suggestion would be to go bare-bottom. It´s arguably a less aesthetic option (although it sort of grows on you, i find xD) but it´s the most practical.

Anyway, if you´ve only had them from september, it´s possible that they are still experiencing the effects of the severe stress they suffered. It can affect them for quite a while but if conditions are good, they will eventually snap out of it.

 

[Molch]

I have substrate based planted tank with soil underneath the gravel. When I feed blackworms, I put them in a submerged shallow plastic or glass dish. I use a plastic petri dish or the lid of a glass butter dish. I it doesn't sink by itself, you can weigh it down with a small rock inside. I aways leave a small unplanted patch for that purpose in the front of the tank.

The newts quickly learn to grab the worms out of the dish. A few worms will escape into the substrate, but that isn't a problem. The newts will hunt tose down at other times. The worms will stick their ends out of the substrate at night and that's when the newts can get them.

In my opinion, densely planted tanks are the best and easiest to maintain and have the most reliable water quality.

See pic below

 

[suztor]

I've had them since mid July. They went though their quarantine while I finished the build.

What exactly makes for a stressful environment? There is some foot traffic where their tank is but nothing major.

As far as plants that touch/break the surface, I have 1 and one of those bendable 'jungle vines' breaking the surface at several points. I have some sword plants but they are too short, I'm not sure if the will ever reach the surface. My water is at minimum 14 inches deep. I need to find tall cold water plants. Bare bottom is just not something I want, I'm trying to make it a bit of a center piece. I want something rather natural looking.
This is what my tank looks like right now. I'm not exactly happy with the looks.

 

[suztor]

When yousay soil do you mean like walstad method? Or more like ADA like stuff

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[Molch]

I guess my tanks are by the Walstad method: organic potting soil under a layer of gravel. The key to that method is to have it very densely planted from the beginning, with plants that root strongly and can do well in the cooler temps of a newt tank. Some of my favorites are Rotala rotundifolia, Vallisneria spiralis and Sagittaria subulata. I find my amazon swords won't grow well under 70 F. My water depths is also approx. 14 inches. The cyanurus love it.

another thought: rather than being stressed, if your newts are still on the young side, they may simply be not yet ready to completely return to the water. I would say, as long as they appear healthy and are eating, I wouldn't worry too much about whether they are in the water or on land. I would take the filter out though, just in case that's what's bothering them...

 

[suztor]

I'll have to look into those plants.

3 are young and I'm not too stressed about them. It's mainly the 2 adults I have, that I worry about.

I know one of my babies (the only one not in the water in the garage) doesn't seem too interested in the water. I'm ok with that.

I'll look more into the walstad method and see if that will work for me.

I have some java fern should that be tied to a rock or drift wood instead of planted?

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[Ed]

Just back tracking a little.. what test kits do you use? How old are they? If you have cement in the tank and your getting the same pH out of the tap, what is that pH?

Ed

 

[suztor]

@ Ed - I use the API test kit the ones with the drops. it's less than a year old.
My PH is between 8.0 - 8.2 both out of the tap and in the tank.


@Molch - I have this nice potting soil from the local garden center it's there very own soil derived from compost.... is that something i could use... once i get the sticks and such out of it? or is there something I need to be concerned about in soil derived/enriched by composting? I know my Grape vine outside was (it's now winter) growing great in that stuff! lol

I'll buy new stuff if I need to. but I have a huge bag of that and a huge bag of super fine sand that I'm hoping I can make more use of. any suggestions are appreciated!

 

[moinkable]

Plant suggestion:
Try putting some java moss on your wood. Fluff it up a bit so extends all the way from the wood to the surface. I don't bother to tie mine, it kind of roots itself after a few days. It grows like a weed and the firebellies LOVE it. It can support their weight so it makes a good lounging spot. They are pretty much in there all the time.

My avatar is even a picture of one of them in the moss .....

 

[Molch]

@Molch - I have this nice potting soil from the local garden center it's there very own soil derived from compost.... is that something i could use... once i get the sticks and such out of it? or is there something I need to be concerned about in soil derived/enriched by composting? I know my Grape vine outside was (it's now winter) growing great in that stuff! lol

If it is well composted it is probably all right. (you can do the sniff test - does it smell like soil? It shouldn't smell like manure). Also, it shouldn't contain any added fertilizer or any of those little plastic bits (perlite). I would sort out the larger sticks and bark pieces. What works brilliantly is to sift the soil, after it has dried a bit, through one of those metal screen covers for terrariums. That will sort out all larger particles real effectively. I use the metal covers, not the plastic one; the metal ones have a wider mesh

 

[suztor]

I'll take a deeper sniff but I use it for all of my indoor plants and its never smelled the place up... So that should be good news. I have one of those mesh collanders that has a really tight med that I used to clean gravel and sand in the past. Hopefully that works. I'm trying to avoid spending much money on this project. But! I'll check the thrift store next door to my work!

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[Ed]

@ Ed - I use the API test kit the ones with the drops. it's less than a year old.
My PH is between 8.0 - 8.2 both out of the tap and in the tank.

Was your water coming out of the tap at the pH from the beginning? I'm asking as that is the upper range that is generally considered acceptable due to reactivity of the water.

Ed

 

[suztor]

It is straight from the tap. I've filled up the test tube straight from the tap. And tested it from there.

I've considered using water softner pillows to bring the hardness down and in turn hopfully the pH.

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[suztor]

How do you read water reports?

the link attached is the water report for 2010 (the latest one available)
http://www.flagstaff.az.gov/DocumentView.aspx?DID=13174


if not... Google 'flagstaff Arizona water quality' and you should also be able to find it... this is very confusing to me.

I'm told we have good water.... although I have no idea if that means... good quality or just good to drink( which it is pretty good straight from the tap)

 

[Ed]

I think I'm not being clear.. with the tapwater pH, was it always that pH (from the first time you tested it)? I'm trying to see if there is an issue with the test kit. If you have the master test kit and mix the vials up after using them a few times, you can get significant errors from the test kits. Also over time the reagents begin to go bad.

Instead of using water softener pillows (which release salts that reduce the buffering capacity of the water), you would have a better result in using an RO filter or deionizer (or both) and then adding a product like RO right to get the pH and hardness that you want in the tank (plus it wiill provide reverse osmosis water for replacing water that evaporated).


Ed

 

[suztor]

When I first got the kit. My tap water was the first thing I tested. And it was 8.2

I'll look into the RO right thing. I know I can't use the Ph drops or powders they say not to be used with planted tanks. I might look at getting water from those dispensers at the gas station.

overall update...
I'm in the middle of setting up my tank in the walstad method. So excited its going to look great!

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[Ed]

The information in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium is very nice.. The author did a nice job of breaking down the issues using a lot of research. My copy sits right next to Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry and Amphibian Biology. Volume 2, Social Behaviour....

Ed