Newbie trying to make a difference

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purple

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Hi, I'm new to newts/salamanders. Several weeks ago I bought two newts from Petsmart... a few days later, one of them died. I've learned from doing research that you shouldn't keep FB toads with FB newts, and that's exactly what Petsmart does. I noticed that the newt who didn't make it was missing most of its fingers. I went to Petsmart for some crickets, and spoke with an employee who told me they were having problems with the toads biting the newts. The next time I was at Petsmart, I spoke with the manager with my concerns. She dismissed them by saying she has kept the FB toads and newts together for 18 years with no problems.
Now I've complained about the toads and newts being kept together and the manager I spoke with, to the store director who will be giving me a call Monday afternoon. Being new to this all, I'm not exactly the most knowledgeable person about caudates, but where can I find good, solid information to back my argument up?
thanks in advance for any input.
 
http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/articles/Mixing_disasters.html

http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/editor/spmix.html

if said manager has been keeping them together for 18 years and hasnt had a problem, she's VERY lucky. also: the temperature requirements for FB frogs and FB newts are quite different. ie: keeping newts in a temperature thats warm enough for frogs would distress them, possibly killing them. and to keep frogs at a temp low enough for the newts would distress them... and if an intermediate temperature was kept, both animals would be stressed.

i loudly applaud your efforts to change things. keep trying.
 
I am about to do the same thing here in my town. I have printed up the "species mixing disasters" info. from this site. Ask the store manager to accompany you to the tank where they keep them and point out the dead or "nubbed" newts and say "where do YOU suppose their legs have gone?"
 
dont be rude about things. being rude just makes people angry. but be informative. when people have poor information to go on, they can only do well with what they have... the better informed the caretaker, the better off the animal.
 
well, the manager who i first spoke to said she contacted "experts" and the "experts" told her it was okay to mix the two... i spoke with some sort of director today(who i at first thought was the store director) earlier today and she too said she called a vet and asked... these people just don't listen... i'm always more than polite about things like this because i know that's the only way people will listen... i forgot to bring up the temperature requirements for them and now i'm kicking myself...
so what now? she said she'd look into the store that i went to, to move the newts into the empty turtle tank for the time being, but also said if they order more turtles, then the newts will go back with the toads...
if anyone has anymore suggestions, please let me know... i really want to help the little cuties out, but these stubborn people just don't want to stop and do REAL research...
 
Purple
I am pleased that you are trying to educate these people, but find from my own experiences with pet shops and amphibians, that if it puts the shop out in any way, they just do not want to know.
Care of the toads and newts is of little concern to the shop owners as they pay next to nothing for the animals in the first place.
Attracting peoples attention to the tanks is what matters to them.
You could try asking other people that you know to bring up the same concerns to the shop manager.
Maybe if they have a lot of people giving them friendly advice on newt and toad care, they may start to think seriously about it.
 
Why don't you try "going high"... get the contact details for the company's (top) director?
Would national or local animal welfare charities be interested in your cause?
Would the company head then be interested in avoiding bad publicity?
I mean just this discussion here means concern has been expressed on the Internet about just how seriously they take the wellbeing of their animals...
Then there are local politicians you could share your concern with...
We have "Trading Standards" here in the UK to ensure retail legislation is complied with - talk to your equivalent...
Just ideas... good luck and keep on going!
 
I'm definitely with Matt on this one. The possibility of bad publicity might just scare them enough to change their bad habits. I would suggest compiling a research paper including the different environmental needs of the two animals, the dangers of mixing the species, and the testemonials of the people here on caudata.org (remember to cite your sources). You should also let them know that if they choose to continue to disreguard their animal's wellbeing, there are quite a few people who might be interested in knowing this, including: animal right's organizations, public officials, the public in general. The main thing to remember is to remain informative yet tactfull. Keep us updated and let us know how things turn out!
 
Cheers S.T.

(Testimonials of people here... cite your sources... with permission maybe?)

Above all, get the name of the boss and send him a powerful fax!!!
 
I was at a petshop this weekend where they had a nicely planned 30 gallon terrarium with African Dwarf & Clawed frogs, Japanese Firebellies, Firebelly Toads and small (hermit?) crabs. One of the owners told me that (to the best of his recollection) he had never had any instance of aggression between the species.

The issue with Petsmart may be aquarium size, feeding and/or care related. I was personally told by an employee that they feed the toads and newts "pellets". This hardly constitutes a healthy diet and the water had a heater in it. It would be nice if Petsmart had someone responsible for the maintenance of their live animals. I can't imagine it being in a retailer's better interest to ignore pertinent information regarding the well being of their live pets in any situation. Whether it's a $.50 fish or a $1500.00 parrot.

Personally speaking, I don't generally take an offputing stance until someone either blows me off or outright refuses to learn the facts about something and subsequently causes pain or damage. I know that a newt is a relatively minor creature but if your going to sell it, then you should properly care for it.
 
Well, I printed out the species disaster list and brought it up to the Petsmart location. I also informed them of the water temperature requirements for each, and I also let them know that the newts they had were Chinese fire-belly newts, not Japanese as the tag underneath the tank said.
She also began to tell me that when she had them separated, she was losing them one by one. Now that she has them with the toads she says they're doing better. To me her argument was that the toads are keeping the newts alive, and that didn't make any sense. She asked me if that's fair to the newts if keeping them alone wasn't working as well as with the toads. In my opinion, they shouldn't be selling newts at all.
After handing her my print out, she took a glance at it and said she'd never heard of the company that I printed this out from. I began to tell her that it was a print out from a site devoted to caudates. She obviously didn't look at the information I printed out to bring to her. It outrages me that she didn't even care to look at it. What angers me about all of this is the fact that they don't care what I present to them whatsoever. It seems like there's little I can do as the company supports what this specific store location is doing, which to this manager and store director feels justifies their actions.
So now I've spoken with a specialty manager, the store director, and one of the higher ranking directors of the company. No one seems to care about what I have to say or any information that contradicts there information.
We let them know that we are no longer shopping at any Petsmart locations at all. And this isn't the first time I've gotten an attitude from a specialty manager. At a different location, a specialty manager refused to sell me a sick fish for a discounted price. I offered to purchase it with no guarantees no warranty of any sort. She gave me this rude tone and since then we stopped going to that location.
I'm so frustrated... I know I can't save the newts from the world... but it doesn't seem like there'll be anything I can do, not even bad publicity as the company and their employees just don't want to open their ears to new information. I was barely able to speak to them as they were already arguing their side. I came to speak with her in a civilized manner and that's not what happened at all.
 
It seems that people in pet stores don't like to be told anything about the animals they are selling.

"when she had them separated, she was losing them one by one. Now that she has them with the toads she says they're doing better". What a crock!!! I can't beleive she would even attempt to say this outloud to another person.

In a similar experience, I worked in a pet store for a while. I used to breed birds and I knew from looking at one of the store's birds that there was something wrong with it. I brought the matter to the manager's attention, but she dismissed my concerns saying that "it was probly just a little warm and trying to cool off". I knew this was not the case. A few days later the bird was in worse condition. I offered to take it off their hands, but they refused and it eventually died. The same thing happened with a sick bunny. They wouldn't even take it to a vet to have it checked out and it ended up dying. Needless to say, I quit the job. There should be something more we can do about things like this. There are organizations to protect animals, and maybe that is the next step!
 
petsmart is quite possibly the worst place to buy herps... i went in one store once and was checking out the fb newts. there must have been over 100 newts in one of the tanks. there were so many that there was major aggression and several individuals were missing limbs as well as fingers and tails. several more were dead.

well i just burst into tears and went straight to the manager. all she did was say she was very sorry and would take care of the situation immediatley. yeah right, im sure she did... anyway that was the last time i went to petsmart.
 
It seems like the whole chain of Petsmart stores consistently abuses and neglects its newts. I have a Petsmart right down the street from me and frequent it to buy dog food. Every time I go there I stop by the newt tank only to be saddened by the horrific site of piles of dead and decaying newts! It's pretty revolting to say the least
sad.gif
((( Last time what really saddened me was that there was one healthy looking newt in the corner frantically crawling up the corner to get away from the pile of decomposing newts (10 at least). I was tempted to rescue him but felt that I'd only be encouraging the sale of the little guys. Oh well, I guess if we keep sharing our stories with others, word will eventually get out to the public and mass demand at large petstores will drop?
 
I urge everyone here who has seen the poor and cruel conditions of the newts to please, please complain. One or two complaints would be all I would need to get this thing further off the ground. One person isn't enough. I've been told by more than one person from this company, as well as the managers and store director that they company fully backs up the keeping of the FB newts and toads. Right now they're only dealing with one unsatisfied ex-customer. If you guys complain it'd really help to open the eyes of these ignorant people.
I let the manager and store director know that they didn't even have the FB newts properly labeled because they were labeled as Japanese, and they were Chinese. I also often see the newts trying to get away from it all by climbing up the walls. The last time I was there I saw one in the corner and began to look dry.
One or two complaints from everyone would be a big help in trying to get this thing off the ground. It would especially help since some of you are really experienced in the keeping of caudates!
Just complain to the corporate office, the number is (800)738-1385, ext.2518.
Thanks everyone.
 
Hey Guys,

Things are somewhat different at the Petsmart here in my area.

I went in and they used to house the toads and newts together. I think I offhandidly mentioned something about that being bad to a friend that worked there, and he just seemed to ignore it (or so I thought). The next time I came in though they had them in seperate tank. The tanks they had them in were even setup very well for as well as aestetically pleasing. SInce then, other then fish, they keep everything seperated by species (Asian crabs and fiddler crabs are even seperate).

Not all stores are like these.
Rob
 
Wow, reading all this shocked me, I've never seen this cruelty in any petshop here so far! Well, Ive seen a dead fish once, but that was removed immediatly after I reported it. I can't believe they have tanks with 10 newt corpses in it and still think we are encouraged to buy the newts! Purple, it's a good thing you let them know their errors don't go un-noticed!
 
Kudos to you for standing up. People hate to hear that they are wrong - especially when they are the manager of a store. At a store near my place, they have a whole mess of axoltls in a tank with little fiddler crabs. They dont really bother with eachother. What bothers ME is that they have another tank, with smaller axoltols and fire belly toads. Been trying for a while to get them to sepearate the two (and beleive me, I'll go on until I get my way).

Best of luck.
 
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