Need to find references on pachy complexes

[paris]

does anyone know of a good online source for describing the differences between pachy abc and the new d? i found 1 website but i cant translate it -its http://www.matelijat.info/tulilisko/lajit/suku_pachytriton/muut_muodot.html

im not even sure what language its in.

i dont want to use the livingunderworld site for reference -so any other sources? or personal accounts?? i have a few guys that may be some of these so i'll post their photos later-bt i only have a few, so im not sure how much they represent the types

 

[ralf]

In my opinion that is Finnish and Joonas also visits this forum occasionally. Maybe you already know this one?

http://www.ag-urodela.de/daten_arten/pachytriton/taxonomie_biologie_pachytriton.htm

 

[paris]

hi ralf,
yeah i saw the page but couldnt translate it-i can see by the photos some differences-but i havent seen enough to distinguish individual differences from group ones. i did access henks pachy c link via an odd route(the direct link didnt work)-so i have descriptions on pachy c. do you know if any dna data has been done on them? i got the impression from one on line source that the only reason they arent described as new species is because there is no collection local data-does this sound right?

 

[henk]

Hai Paris, I will not forget you. Anyway concerning C there has been some scientifical work done on death animals. Also the genetics were studied but of the whole Pachytriton genus I still recall the speech bij Thiesmeier and Veith giving in GErsfeld now some years back. THe resumé was that some of the genetic distances between certain types of pachytritons were quite larger then the genetic distances between Cynops species....
Anyway the person studying the C pachytriton initially thoguht it could well be another genus, but since we had no collection data we could not officially describe it as a species and the same for the A & B type. However the C type is totally different although se shots of larvae, eggs and juveniles (I bred and rsied them) are looking quite like Pachytriton. Nevertheless we'll never be sure if no other animals turn up... I still have 1 C alive...now after 8 years