Lost one to limb rot, need to save the other

[Akari]

Hey guys! This is my first post on the site, but I'll head over to the intro side in a bit First, I have an interesting situation that needs handling.

A few days ago, I bought two young fire bellies, about 3 inches. They both seemed healthy, other than needing some meat on their bones, and with my 10+ experience with fish, you'd think the one in the tank at the store with the rotted mouth would have raised a red flag, and that I would have walked away. However, I got what I thought were two perfectly healthy ones and when I got home, and realized one had a good sized chunk rotted away from the bottom of it's tail, near the base (you can sort of see it in this picture-- the one on the right):



This morning, it looked considerably worse, when I fished them out to do a salt bath.






You can see how swollen and bad the one back leg looks. Shortly after the salt bath was over, and they were both back in the tank, this little guy died. I'll be taking it back to the store tomorrow morning for a refund.

The other one is looking fine, and seems to be eating. It doesn't have any wounds or white spots of rot starting, and is responsive to movement outside the tank. Right now, the tank is nothing special, just a 10 gallon with about 3 gallons of water in it, and a log and driftwood to get them up out of the water. I have a turtle dock on order so that I can add more water, when ever it gets here. Right now I'm doing daily water changes to keep this rot at bay, and I've got a Tom Mini Internal filter going. The water is cloudy in the pic because I apparently didn't squeeze out the filter sponge well enough when I took from another tank, and caused a big mess. It's clear now, however, and I'm using Prime as my water conditioner. I don't trust my tap water with anything less... Lol



Since my surviving newt has been exposed to rot, should I go ahead and keep with the salt baths? I'd hate to kill it by bothering it too much, especially because it's still new, but I'd also hate for it to see the same fate it's little friend did. Also, since I just got it, do you think I could replace the dead one with a better looking one when I take it back for a return tomorrow, and just continue to watch and/or treat them? I know they do best in groups. Kind if a catch 22 situation all the way around, really.

And one more thing, in all my years of fish keeping, I've learned to always acclimate, even between tanks filled with the same water source. I did acclimate them when I brought them home, but today when I did a salt bath on them, I did a full water change while they were out of the tank, and added them back after the tank was refilled, with no acclimation. I almost (*almost*) wonder if I had acclimated, if the one would have made it. Probably not, though... He looked ok one day, then today he just looked down right terrible.

Anyways, if anyone has anything to offer, that'd be great!

 

[Chinadog]

Hi, welcome to the site. I'm afraid the outlook isn't good, those newts are beyond emaciated and will be extremely delicate . These kinds of necrotic sores often kill wild caught Asian newts like these because the animal's immune systems are no longer working after the horrific stress bought on by capture, importation and then usually poor or just the wrong conditions at petstores. By the time they are sold to their final owner they are often beyond saving.
For the survivor to have any chance of recovering you need to provide perfect conditions. All they really need is clean, cold water that's rammed full of live plants, If there's enough plants, they will keep the water sweet, allowing the filter to be removed as these newts hate water movement, so running the filter will just add to it's misery.
If the newt you have left is not showing any sign of sores I wouldn't bother with salt baths. You need to concentrate on improving it's environment to give it any chance of de-stressing enough for its immune system to recover.

 

[Asevernnnn]

I would also consider replacing the gravel with sand or leaving it bare-bottomed to prevent an unnecessary build up of waste and debris.

 

[Azhael]

Yeah, their chances are virtually non-existent. They obviously were in very bad shape before you bought them but not having a suitable environment prepared for them yourself, it only got worse.
ALL H.orientalis available from pet-shops are WC and subjected to misserable conditions. Many die before reaching the shops and many more die at the shops or soon after being purchased. It is wasteful and cruel. These kinds of infections are very common but are not the only life-threatening problem they can develop. Unfortunately they are difficult to treat even if the correct steps are taken very early.
Have you seen the caresheet for this species? They require a minimum of 10gallons of water and the optimal set-up, like Chinadog suggested, is lots of live plants and no currents. Substrates that can be accidentally ingested are a constant danger and they also trap large amounts of debris which compromises water quality. Very fine silica sand is the safest substrate as long as it's kept to a shallow layer.

 

[Akari]

Thanks guys! I will not the replace the dead one, then. Not yet, anyways. I was looking at Repticon dates (that's a dangerous thing for me LOL), and looks like the next two closest shows are going to be an hour and a half away, in either direction in October and January. Will my one guy be ok until January? And at that point, would it be ok to introduce, after quarantine of course, a likely much smaller newt to it?

I have read the sites care sheet, and several others online. I appear to be missing several of my aquarium ornaments, so I had to work with what I had as far as getting them out of the water was concerned. I have several bunches of water sprite in my 50 gallon that are growing out of the top of the tank that I could trim down, peroxide and move over. One is a good 12 inches in diameter, ha!

The filter sponge thing was before I realized they had problems. Had I noticed how bad the one looked, I would have just done another water change, and I probably could have avoided this whole situation, for the most part, at least. I figured the filter would pick it up and help with the cycle, even though it was seeded. Little help never hurts, right...? Apparently it does lol Some of that discoloration is the driftwood, though. That is one leachy piece of wood. Tannins help prevent stress and heal wounds in fish-- is it the same for amphibians? As far as filter junk goes, though, the water is clear now. I will continue with daily or every other day water changes for the time being just to keep my parameters down, though I don't think they'll cause any problems at this point, since everything was seeded from other tanks (gravel and filter sponge).

That filter, by the way, moves very little water. It's just a motorized sponge filter. That's why I chose it. I have a thing about stagnant water, even with live plants, but I have the flow reduced and pointing straight at the nearest tank wall, so there is pretty much just surface movement. I do have plans on getting the tank set up more appropriately, and hopefully upgrading to a 20 long. Like I said, just was working with that I had. I can't find most of the things I wanted to use in the tank. There are lots of silk plants in there right now. The gravel layer is very thin. When you look down on the tank, there's a lot of glass exposed. I've tried sand before, and it's it something I can't handle safely, as far as gas pockets go. It's also a pain to syphon. I have more than 10 years caring for fish, I can handle gravel better than the average bear I also have plans on fully planting the tank, and I've been there, done that with sand and it just doesn't happen for me. I can, however, get larger gravel, if you think mine is an issue. It's just normal , finger nail sized gravel. Got it from PetCo forever ago. It's bigger than my little guys head.

I agree, the practices the pet trade participates in just to make a few bucks is disgusting (my biggest pet peeve being dyed and tattooed fish and ACFs). Usually the tanks here are marked wild-caught or captive bred, but the newts didn't have a proper tag yet, and I didn't ask. There is at least one person around here that breeds them, and I'll hunt that guy down. Last I saw him was two years ago at repticon, though. I hope he's still going. I need some buddies for my little guy!

 

[Asevernnnn]

Larger gravel wouldn't make it better. Any type of gravel will get debris and waste trapped underneath. Having bare bottom or sand would be cleaner and easier to clean in my opinion, you can get play sand at a hardware store for like 4$

 

[Azhael]

I wouldn't make plans for january when it comes to that poor little thing....
You may be able to deal with gravel but if the newts can get any piece of it inside their mouths, it's a hazard. Also, it difficultates feeding and cleaning. Sand is easy....all you need to do to prevent anaerobic conditions is to have a thin layer of less than an inch. You can also go barebottom which is by far the most practical option.
Most animals at any expo are going to be WC aswell. If you want to acquire CB animals you can contact breeders directly and get them shipped safely to you. Bare in mind that juveniles are almost always terrestrial and cannot be housed in an aquarium.
FYI, newts don't need "buddies". They are not social and being kept alone has no impact whatsoever on their health and well-being. If you decide to acquire other newts in the future i strongly recommend that you wait, this is certainly not the time to be thinking about buying more newts...I also VERY strongly recommend that if you do, you look for CB animals that you can be certain of. It wouldn't be the first time that some shop or someone at an expo claims to be selling CB animals when it is entirely false.

 

[Asevernnnn]

I've never had a problem with siphoning up sand when using a non-battery powered siphon. The only time it sucks up a lot of sand to make a difference is if I actually put the siphon directly on the sand, I just put it slightly over the sand so that it gets the debris and waste and not the sand.
Even if I do get some sand sucked up, I just have to put like a finger on the lip of the bucket when dumping out dirty water and then It just gets put back into the tank with the new water. And most of my female H. orientalis are about 4" in length if not a little longer and could easily eat gravel, and its better safe than sorry.

As for buying new ones, I wouldn't even consider it until you get your tank cycled and full of plants and until you get something figured out for the WC newts, theres a slim chance I will have some CB H. orientalis in the future because I have a bunch of larvae running around the adult tank, but I wouldn't even thing about buying more right now.

If you want to plant the tank, you could try the Walstad method. But I personally prefer just having plants thet don't need to be rooted, but can be if you want them to, but they might just not grow as fast as they would free floating. I've had pretty good luck with Java Fern, Java Moss, Hornwort(although I cant stand it), Elodea/Anacharis, and Wisteria. And in some of my tanks, I'll just have a few plastic plants in the back, just to have more plants in the tank and so I cant see them a ton(cant stand the look of plastic plants in tanks unless theyre like really good quality silk plants)

And sometimes only having 1 newt can be a good thing, this specie will end up breeding all year long, and theres not much you could do with the larvae and juveniles other than raise and give them away since theres really no value in them in the pet trade due to that their readily available WC in petstores for cheaper and a few other factors.
Aaron

 

[Akari]

I have a live plant fetish, and my goal as soon as I set the tank up, was to fully plant it, and make it all lush and green. Here is the water sprite I was telling you guys about, in my other tank. I also have a Windelov fern I could use, as well.



Would something like this, with no actual land-type area, be ok for getting the newts out of the water? My guppies really like it, but it's a total eye sore, growing out of the top of my tank.

Just a random thought on the substrate, can I use a food safe shelf liner, siliconed downed to the bottom of the tank? Shelf liners are often used to house reptiles on, but obviously amphians are more sensitive to their environment than reptiles are. All I want is something that's easy to clean (which I find sand is not) and looks good. Also, petco has their black sand on sale, so I'll take a peek at that.

Why is it that I'm seeing everywhere that newts are social and should be kept in groups? I do, by the way, know people, and know people that know people, that I could rehome young to in the even of any spawning.

 

[Azhael]

Hmmm, if you like live plants and have them available why didn't you use them? All i see are silk plants in the newt's tank which are absolutely useless in an uncycled tank. If it had been properly cycled in advance at least, they would have offered some surface for bacteria, which is something....as little as it is...Live plants on the other hand will keep nitrogen compounds in check if used in large quantities wether the tank is cycled or not.

When these newts are healthy they don't use land areas...they behave 100% aquatic all year round. At most, you need a floating piece of cork bark as a security meassure in case water conditions turn bad and maybe for a quick stroll on land every once in a blue moon. Anything more than that is a pointless waste of volume. The plants will not work as a "land" area, but healthy animals will definitely apreciate having them to rest on with their head near the surface.

If the self liner is safe for use underwater i don't see why not, but you need to make sure it doesn't leak anything. Another option is to use a piece of slate tile cut to size and siliconed around to prevent debris from accumulating beneath. It's as easy to clean as a bare bottom but very appealing. It's heavy, though, and this should be taken into account. Watch out for black sands, some brands are painted with substances that contain and leak copper.

I don't know where you are seeing that stuff but it's definitely not true. Caudates are not social, not a single species is. Some do fine in groups, others are highly territorial and aggressive and will fight to the death. They don't need conspecifics, they may tolerate them and interact with them occasionally but they are not required and they will do perfectly fine on their own.

I forgot to mention earlier that salt baths should not be applied in such deep water. You are suposed to put the animal in a container where the water is deep enough just to cover its back. There is a very real danger of drowning otherwise, particularly for a newt so weak.
Also, they are/were not young, at that size these newts are fully adult and their age is unknown, they could be 4 years old or 14...

 

[Akari]

I just threw in what I had immediately on hand. I need to sanitize the plants from the 50 gallon before moving them over. The silk plants were already clean and ready to go.

The existing newt is now constantly on the log in the middle. It's just sitting up there, nearly dried out, and pretty unreactive. I thought it was dead this morning and gave it gentle poke, to which it stiffly shied away from with as little movement as possible. I don't really want to go in there and change it's environment all up when it's just starting to get used to it! I'll start with the Windelov fern and another water change, and see how it goes from there over the next couple days.

I would love to do slate, but no body cuts tile here I may have pieces that will fit left over from when I slated my leopard gecko tanks. If they don't, then no slate. I'll pop in the dollar store and see what they have for shelf liners, as well.

They are fully grown at this size? I thought at least another inch or so-- they're so tiny. So at this point, they shouldn't even really want to be on land, right?

 

[Azhael]

Stressed and ill animals will move onto land. Also, if water conditions are not adequate they will go into terrestrial phase to avoid those conditions. In order for them to be fully aquatic they must be both healthy and have adequate water conditions. A lack of plants near the surface is also a factor. Weak and terrestrially adapted newts are not strong swimmers and open spaces can lead to drowning. Only when they fully adapt to water and their tails flatten out and widen do they become competent swimmers that can deal with open spaces and deeper water.
It would probably be best if you moved the newt to a temporary terrestrial tank with moist, unbleached paper towels, a couple of hides, no lights and as little disturbane as possible.
If it happens to recover, which is not likely, once fit you can aclimate it to water until it becomes fully adapted.

Pieces of slate secured in place and making sure to fill the gaps, also work. The shelf liner you really need to make sure is safe.

Females can grow to 11cm at the most, but usually stay at 9-10 cm when fully grown, while adult males can be as small as 6cm long. They will continue to grow their entire lives but very slowly after hitting maturity.

It was a mistake to acquire the newts without having a fully cycled, adequately prepared tank already set-up. It was also a mistake to purchase newts in such poor condition, or any WC import for that matter.
If you decide to acquire new animals in the future i hope that you will learn from the mistakes made this time and that you will make sure to be able to provide optimal conditions from the moment they arrive at your house. This is a very easy to care for and very rewarding species when they are healthy and offered the simple conditions they require. They will breed profusely with very little stimulus and can live for over 15 years. Do things right and you can enjoy these wonderful animals for a very long time.

 

[Akari]

Not sure why, but the forum is having a heart attack on my phone. Random pictures everywhere, missing buttons. Might be because I updated my iOS last night....

Anyways, the one that died (pictured above) doesn't seem to have spread his cooties to my other one. He's doing really well, and has some sort of weird crush on one of my silk plants LOL I did end up getting the PetCo sand yesterday, as I've used it before with African Dwarf Frogs and had no issues with it. I also bought some suction cups and got really creative with the bottom part of the media basket out of an AquaClear 500 and some plastic craft mesh, and made up a makeshift land area. My goal is to use the plastic canvas, the gravel I pulled from the tank and some silicone to make a custom land area, and I won't be getting a turtle dock.

I used the log and a piece of slate that used to have driftwood drilled to it, and leveled it out best I could so he could climb out of the water completely and dry off if he wanted. He's content with sitting the shallow water over top of the log, though, in his favorite plant. I think it's the big, wide leaves he likes about it. Anyways, I haven't seen the little guy on the "land" yet, and he's mich more alert today, so he must be feeling better. Now to get him to eat...

I also put the Windelov fern and a smaller piece of water sprite, as well as a small stem of wisteria that snuck in somehow, and left a couple of the silk plants to fill in emtpy space while I plan out how exactly I'm going to get my project to work.

 

[Asevernnnn]

I would continue adding plants, heres a picture of my H. orientalis tank, its a mess but it works for me. The broken pieces of pot are only there to give the larvae some cover, although some are getting to a decent size that I won't need them.
The plants I have in here are Hornwort, Java Fern, Java Moss, Elodea and whatever is growing out of that ball thing lol

 

[Akari]

I plan on it. I'll have to get a pic of my 50 gallon for you guys. Plants everywhere. I finally managed to at least arrange them so that it looks clean, and not like the plants are just doing whatever they want lol

I'm going to start buying some bog plants, that can have their roots in the water at all times, and still have their leaves exposed to air. I have a little plan going on with my land area. Just need that stupid gravel to dry before I can start messing with that. Gotta find some plants that'll stay relatively short with out much trimming. I'd like to try some sort carpeting plant. Anyone have carpeting plants in with their newts?

 

[Chinadog]

I have Eleocharis acicularis in one of my Fire belly tanks, it seems to tolerate colder temps quite well.

 

[Akari]

Someone's feeling a little adventurous today LOL