leucistic Triturus (Mesotriton) alpestris

[markusA]

Recently I got 10 metamorphed captive breed (2007) T. alpestris from a friend (origin of parents: Central Germany).
3 of them show a distinct colouration and small size, they are orange with some fine dorsal brown lines. Parents have normal colour.
Does anybody have experience with breeding colour morphs of alpestris: growth rate, survival rate?
I separated them from the bigger tank mates but still it seems that they are less able to prey successfully on white worms and small crickets and Collembola.
The 3 orange newts where much smaller than normal ones (15 - 20 mm orange; 30 mm normal colour 1 month after metamorphose).
Is it possible that the colour changes after some month or with reaching maturity?

 

[Otterwoman]

How interesting!! Can you possibly post pictures??

 

[markusA]

pics of my T. alpestris

as you can see 2 are much more light (the flash of my camera is changing the orange to yellow-brown a bit)
and 1 is getting middle brown now, nearby 2 normal ones,
The smallest is 20mm in length

 

[Azhael]

Mmmmmm.....those aren´t alpestris Ô_o
I mean, the two bigger ones are for sure...but the smaller ones are most likely vulgaris(or helveticus or montandoni...i´m not good at distinguising their morphs). For the pattern i would take a wild guess and say they might be Lissotriton montandoni, but it´s just a first impression.
Anyway i´d recommend you separate them and keep the smaller species in a dryer setup, that looks way too damp and i at least have been told to keep vulgaris in dryer conditions.

 

[robkeulers]

That's my idea too!

They don't look like alpestris to me. Are you sure your friend gave you only alpestris?

 

[Mark]

I'm almost 100% sure that the smaller lighter ones are L.vulgaris not alpestris.

Edit - everyone had the same thought at the same time...lol

 

[coendeurloo]

The one on the top looks a little sick, I'm not sure if it's wise to keep them so moist. Can they choose between moist and dry areas?

And, my guess would be L. vulgaris too

 

[uwe]

Hallo MarkusA (in the DGHT forum your name is FrankN),

the topic was discussed already in the German group and everyone told you that these are just common animals liek T.vulgaris or T.helveticus and no genetic mutation.

It won´t get better if you ask more people the same question.

Uwe

 

[FrankN]

I have also such newts

Hi Markus, it seems that you have the same problem like me. I've posted it here:
http://dghtserver.de/foren/showthread.php?t=61343
These aren't T. alpestris. Did you get them from somebody called U.W, living in Dresden? Can you contact me in the forum at the dghtserver? There we can write german. Or - I dont know if you can see my e-mail-adress here, so you can contact me on this way.

 

[Mark]

Looks like you both got burnt by someone who likes a bit of pond dipping.

I suppose it's not impossible both species were captive bred but you'd think that a breeder who'd gone to the trouble of keeping and raising these newts would know the difference between the two species. If they were wild caught would they be legal?

 

[Otterwoman]

Here are some of my alpine newts. I raised them all myself from three original alpine newts I purchased last Feb (2006) from M. Shrom. So I know for sure that they are all alpine newts, and all from the same three parents, all born together this past year. What do you all think?

 

[John]

If they were wild caught would they be legal?

No, not in Germany. You need permits for each species you hold and as far as I know these are usually to prove that the animals were captive bred from captive bred stock.

 

[michael]

Here are some of my alpine newts. I raised them all myself from three original alpine newts I purchased last Feb (2006) from M. Shrom. So I know for sure that they are all alpine newts, and all from the same three parents, all born together this past year. What do you all think?

Hi Dawn,
That is pretty much how the Mesotriton alpestris apuanas in the U.S. are running. The animals in Marks picture don't look like Dawns. Dawns are all the same shape and patterns but light and dark forms. Marks are light and dark and some of them are shaped different and have different patterns. I'd guess that Dawns are all Mesotriton alpestris apuanas and Marks are a hodgepodge.

 

[Mark]

The small ones in MarkusA's photo are Lissotrition for sure. See the attached L.vulgaris photo for comparison. My group of alpestris are a mixture of shades too. It's not just a US thing, that's just how they are .

 

[markusA]

end of miracle

Hi all,

after I checked the parents of the T. alpestris - breeding group of my friend (still in the fridge for hibernation) it turtned out, that he is keeping a pair of T. helveticus within the T. alpestris!

He did not recognise it maybe because he is a beginner in keeping urodela and his animals look quite similar on the first look: dark brown back, no dots on the light orange belly (a very small tail- "appendix" in case of the helveticus male).

Now I know as well how juvenile T. vulgaris and T. helveticus look like.


Markus

 

[Ralf]

Hi MarkusA,
your friend should be sure of what he has in his fridge as you will need papers for both species (to keep them legally in Germany).

P.S.: tail-"appendix" = tail filament