Legal advice needed

[slowfoot]

Hey all,

We moved to Indiana for my husband's work, and now I have a legal quandary regarding my newts. The law says it's illegal to sell or purchase any of Indiana's native species of reptiles and amphibians. That's basically all it says. Here's the exact quote:

"The purchase or sale of Indiana’s native reptiles and amphibians is prohibited.*"

The little asterisk just talks about snakes. Notophthalmus viridescens is a native Indiana species. Mine are N. viridescens dorsalis, which doesn't occur in Indiana, but is technically the same species. Anyway, I have a ton of eggs and larvae this year and would like to eventually send some away either for money or trade for other things.

Would this be illegal

 

[xxianxx]

Hey all,

"The purchase or sale of Indiana’s native reptiles and amphibians is prohibited.*"

Does it specifically mention captive bred animals.

 

[Azhael]

I can´t help at all. I just wanted to comment that usually the law makes no distinctions at the subspecies level. It just concerns species and stubbornly ignores things like non-native subspecies/populations. However, in case of trouble, it might be possible to convince the authorities that what you have are non-native animals that haven´t been collected for a profit (one can dream).

 

[slowfoot]

Does it specifically mention captive bred animals.

No it doesn't. The asterisk mentions that people can get captive breeding permits for 8 species of snake, but that really doesn't help me much.

Yeah, Azhael, that's what I was afraid of I suppose I can just wait the 2 or 3 years until we move again. We'll probably move somewhere terrible for newts like Oregon.

 

[AaronK]

Hey Erin,
Would it be possible to offer the animals up for adoption or give away? You could charge a shipping and handling fee to cover the transportation expenses. You could create paperwork for the recipient to sign that states they are not for sale but instead are being adopted and that transportation cost are not included as part of the give away or adoption.
I would hold onto any proof or evidence that your animals are not native to your state and that they came with you from your previous location, use it as a "pedigree".
Would this be a local state issue? If so I wouldn't worry about the feds knocking on your door.


sale n. transfer of something (and title to it) in return for money (or other thing of value) on terms agreed upon between buyer and seller. The price paid may be based on a posted cost, established by negotiation between seller and buyer, or by auction with potential buyers bidding until the highest bid is accepted by the seller or his agent (auctioneer)

from
sale legal definition of sale. sale synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

 

[FrogEyes]

I think you're solidly in a "gray area". The law doesn't saw "species", and you have animals which are a native species and an exotic subspecies, which means it's open to interpretation. In addition, the subspecies of eastern newt are relatively poorly differentiated.

I would suggest talking to the relevant authorities, in writing. Tell them your situation and see what they have to say. They might tell you in writing that it's okay, they might tell you it's not, or they might be willing to issue you a suitable permit. Whichever way, you should at least have a clear answer BEFORE you run into trouble.

 

[nwmnnaturalist]

Your best sources for help are local fish & wildlife authorities, herpetological societies, naturalist groups and perhaps local colleges and universities. Never be afraid to ask questions, as many would prefer you to take the time to educate yourself.

On occasion, authorities may make exceptions if your credentials are sound and you can prove that the animals are in responsible care. As the primary concern is habitat/population depletion and transmission of pathogens and parasites, they can sometimes allow you to keep animals such as that if you are already in possession. Now selling or distributing is more up to debate, whether it is to state residents or not.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

My own experiences with DNR and FandW vary greatly. Each state varies immensely and interpretation with regards to interpretation and enforcement. Best to ask ahead of time via e-mail and phone.

A fun example is here in Nebraska, where one must have a valid fishing license to catch or keep native herps (save the ones that are protected, which is few). Now to trade/sell/rehome species that are native to the state, but are not of origin from here, one must keep the original bill of sale/receipts/ etc on file.

In other words, I must have a fishing license to keep tigers I bought at the bait shop, and have to keep every receipt, email, shipping label for all of my critters. Non native species, they could care less as it pertains to amphibians.

Keep in mind, if you decide to use e-mail or snail mail, you most likely will not get a reply. It is always better to call, then request a "paper trail" of the conversation. I find this route to be a frustrating waste of effort. I just tracked down a lawyer familiar with wish and game laws here instead.

But, to paraphrase myself:

"When in doubt, don't."

 

[michael]

Hey all,



Would this be illegal

Yes.

Generally enforcement agencies don't pay much attention to salamanders. They don't do much at all at the hobbyist level. Since I'm almost a professional I never work with anything questionable. I prefer to work with European, Asian, and Mexican salamanders because regulations are a little clearer. The regulations on U.S. native reptiles and amphibians are in constant flux and often open to interpretation. Most regulations do not make the distinction at the subspecies level.

 

[slowfoot]

Thanks for the advice all!

"Illegal" is basically what I figured. Guess I'll just hold onto these guys until we move at some point in the future. It's just a little bit of a bummer because I can finally offer a lot of captive bred Notos to people, but not really because of where we live right now. I'm going to run out of newt space soon.