Karelinii larvae again

[joseph]

The karelinii have been growing at a rapid rate and look like they will be morphing pretty soon. I didn't see it happen but at a certain point the lengthened fingers on the larvae shortened back down to normal. These shots are of the 3 largest but their are maybe 6 or more that are around 1/2 the size. They were hatched from eggs sent by Jenn sometime in April.

 

[meghan]

wow! mine morphed over already and i'm sure they're from the same april batch.

 

[jennifer]

Looking good, Joseph.

Unless I sent you a second batch that I didn't record, yours were sent in December, Meg. I was sending out eggs almost every 2 weeks, from December to April.

 

[joseph]

Thanks guys! I've been observing carefully and the one in the third shot(or the "purple" one coming down in the second shot) is starting to get a belly pattern and the belly is turning yellow. Won't be long!

 

[joseph]

Here's the purplish one as of today. Won't be long...

The largest one which appears to be deciding to grow a bit more before morphing.

And you can't forget the smaller ones...

Anyone have any idea what the shiny irridescence on the gills would be for?

Meghan: BTw I found the envelope they came in and it is dated April 11

(Message edited by fishkeeper on June 21, 2005)

 

[pamela]

Hey Joseph -- nice kids! Looks like they are coming along very well. My T.k. larvae are of varying sizes also, with one being much bigger than the rest. As soon as you get a morph, post a pic please. Thanks!

 

[joseph]

I was going to wait until they morphed to update this thread but...

And a few days later

 

[pamela]

Hey Joseph, you're gonna have a morph here any day now - !!

 

[joseph]

I don't know about you...but he looks morphed to me!

Coming up next...

Coming soon...

Very greedy eaters no doubt. They bob up to the top like corks at the sight of these tweezers and will even jump and grab at them.

Currently would be 1 morphed(shown) 2 loosing gills, 3 larger larvae, and 4 smaller.

(Message edited by fishkeeper on June 30, 2005)

 

[nathan]

Have you ever heard of a salamander staying in its larva form and becoming an axolotl sort of thing?

 

[mark]

Nathan -

The trait you are speaking of is referred to neoteny or paedomorphism. There are quite a few species that are capable of maturing while staying in the larval form, typically due to ecological factors. At the same time there are salamanders that are obligate paedomorphs; meaning it is natural and even impossible for them to lose their gills. Such examples include true mudpuppies and waterdogs, the hellbender and its Asian cousins, amphiumas, some of the lungless salamanders, and if I am not mistaken, axolotls are considered among this group as well.

 

[nathan]

yep can you get Hybrids off mud puppy’s and axolotls then?

 

[william]

nope, because mudpuppies are not closely related to axolotls, they are in different families. it's called convergent evolution i think?? when two different groups of animals adapt to the same niche and so look similar. a good example are the hummingbirds of the new world and the sunbirds of the old world. they are in completely different orders, but they look very similar.

 

[jennifer]

I may be mistaken, but I think that the hellbender and its Asian cousins are not among the paedomorphs.

Perhaps Nathan meant to ask whether axolotls could hybridize with waterdogs (i.e., larval tiger sals). The answer to this is yes.

 

[william]

is the pedomorphic gene dominant or resessive then?

don't cryptobrachids have internal gills? amphiumas aren't neotonic.

 

[mark]

As far as I know hellbenders and the Asian giants as well as amphiumas are considered paedomorphic; at least that is what I have been taught by a salamander academic.

I imagine the classification of Cryptobranchids and amphiumas as obligate paedomorphs is based upon other characteristics of their anatomy besides gill structures. Both Cryptobranchids and amphiumas possess a lateral line system. The lateral line system is present in larva, however, I believe it is lacking in all non-paedomorphic salamanders. The retention of this trait, while being a large advantage due to the habitats in which these salamanders occur, is the retention of a larval characteristic; the definition of paedomorphism. I'm sure there are other traits that qualify these salamanders as obligate paedomorphs.

As for the gills, I believe those of the Cryptobranchids are in fact vestigial or perhaps no longer functional at all. Amphiumas, however, posses a pair of functional internal gills.

I should also mention that sirens are also considered paedomorphs.

 

[william]

triturus develop lateral line systems when they return to the water to breed. so i doubt the presence of lateral lines is an indication of neotony

(Message edited by will_j on July 01, 2005)

 

[jennifer]

Yeah, after I posted, I remembered there could be other traits besides gills that could make them paedomorphic. I'm no expert on it.

Also, I misspoke a bit about the hybrids. Obviously, it would be an ADULT tiger sal (neotenic or otherwise) that could hybridize with an axolotl, not a larval one.

Vacation is making my brain mushy

 

[joseph]

Very interesting convo going on here(maybe split topic so it can continue unhindered?)

Here's an update on the original subjects.

I found out that it seems the T. k take a longer time to start to leave water after losing the gills. I see this as a plus as C. o change over so fast that they give you little warning and I learned the hard way drown very quickly even with gills once reaching that stage. Not so with these ones...noticed this morph crawled up onto the moss so took a few shots.

You can see a little friend sneaking into the photo. If I remember right this one has nubs of gills left. They regularly surface to breath when the gills start shortening.

(Message edited by fishkeeper on July 03, 2005)

 

[joseph]

Morph count is now up to 5.

The container in which 4 live.