just finished... new vivarium

[josh]

i collected dart frogs for many years and made elaborate setups for them with false backgrounds and false bottoms. i thought, why not apply this to salamanders?? so i am going to start many projects with salamander setups.naturalistic setups with live, thriving plants, moss, and good lighting with cool temps are my goal. i just finished a really simple one. enough to get sals into it. i have a few finishing touches to do but that will be easy. the pics are kinda bad, but you get the idea. here is a short, simple step by step on how i made it. i will be posting a much more detailed how to later on making false backgrounds that can support 50+ lbs of rock!! (i have done this personally) and i will explain why i do the things i do. but for now.. here is a simple quick one.

i first started off with some rocks and an idea. i then used great stuff expandable foam to fill up space and secure the rocks.

i then used gorilla glue to apply substrate (sand in this case) to cover the expandable foam. gorilla glue works MUCH better than silicone.

ALWAYS be sure to wear latex gloves when dealing with expandable foam or gorilla glue. this stuff is sticky and doesnt come off easily.

evenly spread the gorilla glue as well as you can

once the gorilla glue is evenly spread, HEAVILY coat it with substrate (in this case, sand) and squish it into the gorilla glue. the gorilla glue expands while it cures, so you must continually squish it down and make sure it doesnt bubble through the substrate. it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to fully cure.

once the glue has cured, you simply take a shop vac and vacuum the excess substrate. the end product is very nice. you will most likely have to fix spots that were missed, but this is normal. i suggest doing this step in sections as it can get overwhelming otherwise. here is an example of sectioning it off.

once vacuumed, simply fill in the gaps.

with all the expandable foam covered and glue cured, simply vacuum up all excess and the end result is very nice.

now, in my setup, i have a filter int here. i left a hole in the expandable foam for the filter to sit. you must make sure there is a way for water to flow from the pond area under the foam to reach the filter. this is simple by taking a plastic tubing and lasying it down from one end of the aquarium to the other where the pump is going to be. make sure you do this before you add the expandable foam.

the mosses in this setup are temprate mosses and i expect them to die. however, with proper lighting and air flow, many mosses come back via spores or new growth from the die back. this combined with cool temps for the sals, mosses should eventually take hold very well in this setup.

-josh

 

[Greatwtehunter]

That is a very nice setup you have there and can't wait to see it will it fills in, (which I expect to see updated pictures when the moss fills in). I might have missed it but what kind of salamander are you planning on housing in there?

 

[Shadow]

Wow this is really cool!

Also I am interested in what Salamanders you are going to house in there?

 

[ariana]

wow! that is absolutely awesome! i used to have fire bellied toads and newts, but my mom made me get rid of them. that set up is perfect for any salamander! your salamanders are lucky.

 

[slowfoot]

That is very cool! I'll have to try Gorilla glue on my next build.

 

[josh]

well, im not sure what i want to put in there.... i run into rhyacotriton ALOT in the field. i cannot find anything that says they are officially protected, so i was thinking about putting rhyacotriton in there.

this is the most information i can find on rhyacotriton status.

"The actual status of Cascade torrent salamander is unstudied." "Cascade torrent salamanders have state Sensitive status in both the states that encompass their geographic range: Oregon (Marshall et al., 1996) and Washington (K. McAllister, personal communication). In both states, "Sensitive" consists of a watchlist status that lacks legal standing."

the same exact thing is said for the other species as well. i have yet to see anything that says they are, by law, protected. just that they are eligible for it and there is no legal standing behind it. if anyone knows anything different, please let me know.

i know rhyacotriton do well in captivity as i know someone who had kept some for quite some time. i also know they are very common in many areas as i see them ALL THE TIME in many areas.

anyone have any suggestions what would go well in there??

 

[Greatwtehunter]

Ok so after quite a bit of searching the only other thing I could come up with for Rhyacotriton cascadae is that the were last assesed in 2004 for IUCN and there status was put at near threatened (now I admit I am not too keen on how relevant or important IUCN is). And since "state sensitive" lacks legal merit then I would say your free to keep them without worries. Someone with more knowledge than I will surely speak up if I am misinforming you. Now as for what you could keep in it I would have to say any Desmognathus sp., E. bislineata, maybe even E. longicauda would do well in there but being that they are East coast specimens and your on the left coast (I assume) I don't know how easy they would be to come by over there. I will do some more research on Western species and see if I can find some other possibilities, and for the record I would think rhyacotriton sp. would do pretty well in there. Well this turned out longer than I had expected so I hope it did more good than confuse you.

 

[markreid]

I am not sure what state you live in and therefore cannot speak on the specifics of legally keeping Rhyacotriton where you are, however, I will state what I do know. Rhyacotriton are known for having an exceedingly low Critical Thermal Maxima (one of the lowest of all amphibians), showing signs of severe heat stress and even an inability to recover from even brief exposure to temperatures exceeding 77F. You should check out this paper: http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...ima&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a . Rhyacotriton as a genus has been identified by the Amphibian Ark as a priority, an indication of the fragile state these species are in.

Unless you can provide temperatures in the 50's and low 60's on a constant basis along with high water quality I wouldn't recommend these sals.

On a completely separate note, very nice tank. I've wondered about using Gorilla Glue before, but have always been weary of whether or not it would have any harmful effects on the tank's inhabitants.

 

[froggy]

Fantastic tank; if the moss takes hold, it will look even better!

With regards to the Rhyacotriton, I think that you should not only consider the legal side of collecting them, but also the ethical side; you may be able to collect them legally, but collecting will still damage the wild population (not entirely analogous, but the passenger pidgeon could be seen everywhere until it couldn't). I am not sure what else might be suitable for that sort of enclosure, but it may be worth looking round for (ideally) cb animals, or species that are comon throughout their range, and that you have a chance of breeding so that cb offspring of that species are available to hobbyists. I would think that you will have plenty of time to wait while the tank settles down, so it would be worth looking into cb animals, in my opinion.

With regards to water quality, if you used a siphon system connected to a larger vat of water beneath the tank, with a filter/pump to recirculate the water into the tank, it would provide much better water quality.

Good luck!

Chris

 

[josh]

thank you all for your advice. i do know quite a bit about rhyacotriton. and i do know they are VERY common within their range. so taking a few animals from a well established population doesnt seem to be too unethical. i know several places where there are good populations. besides... this is how CB animals come around in the first place also, temps are not that difficult. i live in washington state. it is pretty easy to keep a room in the 60's and low 70's... or even lower. like i said, ive collected dart frogs for years and made elaborate setups for them with water features. i have also kept MANY different fish. i used to breed wild type bettas for a while. not your typical bettas. water quality doesnt worry me at all. i have all that stuff down pretty well. i am not new to this.

check out some of the stuff ive done in the past with frogs

150gal. for D. lamasi (standard)

30gal cube for D. lamasi (red)

250gal for D. intermedius. i thought i had more pics of this one.

30gal cube for liphistius malayanus

i wish i still had these vivs, but i had to get rid of all of them when i moved back to washington from arizona.

by the way...... those are ALL native temprate mosses and liverworts growing in all these vivariums.

-josh

 

[nate]

Hi josh,

Unfortunately, you live in one of the worst states for herp laws: Washington state has a blanket law that prohibits ANY collection of native herps....even Taricha and Thamnophis, regardless of their official state listing. You can't even pick them up legally. I've talked with them on the phone about this a few years back....

I can't find an exact source or link for you for the actual law, but it's been verified in the past on other forums. I will include this quote from rubberboas.com about the collection of rubber boas as preliminary proof (they are not state listed in WA), as the webmaster (Ryan Hoyer) is up on his Pac NW herp laws:

Your best off asking your state Fish and Game department as the laws may change without my knowledge. As of the time of writing, CA allowed the capture of 2 boas with a current fishing license, except for southern Rubber Boas, and no sale of any sort; OR has very little restrictions regarding catching or keeping, but does not allow sale of wild caught; WA does not allow you to even pick them up; BC downlisted them in the summer of 2001, and it may be possible to capture one now; ID, NV, UT, and WY appear to have only minor restrictions and limitations. All states prohibit the sale of wild caught. All states but WA and CA allow for some avenue of breeding native boas. Again - first check with your local F&G to be sure what the laws are before attempting to catch one, or sell any offspring you have as I could be mistaken.

 

[josh]

shoot, why dont you guys just delete this entire post and pretend it never happened. now i have people thinking im all shady and doing illegal things cause i was thinking about rhyacotriton.... that is why I MADE THIS STATEMENT ON MY REPLY POST!!!

"i have yet to see anything that says they are, by law, protected. just that they are eligible for it and there is no legal standing behind it. if anyone knows anything different, please let me know."

go up and read it. i was trying to clarify this matter and NO ONE WAS ANY HELP!!!! now there are people on this forum thinking i already have them and are probably frowning down on me. this is not cool and i dont appreciate it. too much jumping to conclusions. i didnt ask to be judged, just a little advice.

 

[nate]

No worries josh, I'll delete the whole thing if you like or edit out everything Rhyacotriton. Just give me the word. I don't think anyone here already thinks you own Rhyacotriton, and even if you did, it wouldn't be the first time someone has fallen victim to state laws they didn't know about. It happens.

 

[coendeurloo]

Excellent viv Josh! Any other plans on what you are going to keep in there?

 

[Yahilles]

Beautiful tank, but i would mask this filter with something.

I think this would be good tank for Plethodontids, such as Desmognathus sp.

 

[josh]

No worries josh, I'll delete the whole thing if you like or edit out everything Rhyacotriton. Just give me the word. I don't think anyone here already thinks you own Rhyacotriton, and even if you did, it wouldn't be the first time someone has fallen victim to state laws they didn't know about. It happens.

hey nate, i already know one person in particular thinks i already own them. i wish this person would have called me and asked me personally instead of trying to find out through the grapevine. its all good tho. it just really frustrated me alot. i am aware of my state laws and other laws with many sals, i just wasnt sure about rhyacotriton. i go down to california often and was thinking about trying out variegatus because it says they are a species of least concern and i saw no protection status for them. after this, i think i will just forget about it. i think desmogs would be cool in there.

 

[froggy]

Josh

I really do apologise if I sounded accusatory or patronising;I have no doubts about your ability to keep amphibians; the water quality thing was just a suggestion in case things didn't work out with the current setup.
It is one of the aims of thiscommunity to promote the keeping of cb animals and to discourage wild collection - I was simply voicing concerns over collecting from the wild. I know that captive populations need to be established from wild caught animals, but I simply meant to suggest you look for cb stock of either Rhyacotriton (I know there is not much chance of finding them!) or another suitable salamander species. If you were very confident of breeding Rhyacotriton and creating cb lines, there would not be much to disagree with. It was the sentence 'i cannot find anything that says they are officially protected, so i was thinking about putting rhyacotriton in there' that worried me that you were perhaps unaware of the issues surrounding wild caught animals.

Once again, sorry if I came across brusquely.

As I said before, it looks like a fantastic viv,and I wish you luck finding some animals to keep and breed in it. Please keep us updated on how it develops.

Chris

 

[nate]

Good deal Josh, I'm glad to keep the viv sections up for sure, as they're really helpful.

On the subject of variegatus: they might still be obtainable for the average person, I've received conflicting info over the past few years on them. I know that back in 2002 or 2003, Paris Reilly got a permit and went out to CA and collected some sals and she told me she was sure that variegatus was one of the non-protected species that was allowed (5 or less) on her permit. And this wasn't a special permit or scientific collecting permit either, it may just be an out-of-state hunting/fishing license. It might be worth your time to call them up and see.

 

[josh]

very cool, thanks for the info nate. ill definitely look into it. ill be going to california in march/april and i will most likely see plenty of them. till then, ill either let the tank cycle and settle in, or find something else to put in it. i will still be doing a complete how to on a more terrestrial rock set up or semi arboreal setup for the likes of aneides or eurycea, etc..... i love aneides.

-josh

 

[KennyDB]

wow your ex-vivs rock I'm curious how this one will develope, looks great!
good luck!

Kenny