Is it okay to raise eggs you know are inbred?

Petersgirl

Petersgirl

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I recently found out that my spawning male and female are direct brother and sister. I didn't know this until after their eggs had been laid and I had been raising the eggs. I got them from another owner who had to move them on, who mentioned they came from a breeder in a local city. I only knew of one breeder in that city and I contacted her. She said they looked like a batch she had raised and that they were from the same batch, so they are brother and sister. I had assumed they were from different batches.

So my question is: is it okay to raise eggs knowing that the parents are inbred? I spoke to a man at a local zoo who specialises in newts and salamanders (he will be taking 15 of my babies) and he says that it takes 20 generations before we see the impacts of inbreeding. I know ideally we should avoid cross-matings between close relatives, but do you think it is unethical to let the babies grow up on the condition that you let people who take them on know they are the offspring of an inbred mating? I just have strong feelings against the same kind of breeding in dogs, say, even though I know it does happen (I am also aware that a lot of the captive axolotl population has a lot of shared genes).
 
Inbreeding is not as much of an issue with amphibians as it is with something like dogs. The sad fact is that all 'pet' axolotls are already inbred to some extent. There's more of a problem breeding offspring back to their own parents, but sibling pairings aren't too much of an issue.

So yes, it's OK to raise the babies.
 
Thanks Auntiejude :) That makes me feel much better.
 
I personally wouldn't, just because, as Auntiejude said, all axolotls are at least a little inbred. My thought on that is why intensify the problem? Why allow it to happen even one more time than it absolutely must?

If I sell two or more axolotls to the same person, I get their word that they won't allow them to breed if they end up with a male/female pair. If they do breed by accident, then they're to freeze the eggs immediately.

If I raised axolotls by sibling parents, I would feel obliged to tell anyone who was interested in buying them that they were inbred. I feel like that would hinder their chances of being happily re-homed.

Inbreeding may not be as much of an issue with amphibians, but it still isn't a good practice, and it's not a good thing to continue or encourage. If you have strong feelings about not inbreeding, then perhaps those feelings should dictate what you decided to do.

I can understand if it's a hard choice, especially since you have already been raising them :(
 
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it too much, especially since you're already caring for a clutch.

Both Auntie Jude and Embry make very valid points. Yes, almost all captive axies are inbred to some extent, and yes, we should strive to reduce inbreeding as much as possible. However, once instance of a brother/sister pairing is not going to create much of a problem. It would be worse if the two were from already inbred stock, or if they were parent/child.

My two cats, Zev and Lily, had an accidental litter together (they mated before we could get them fixed and before we even realized they were old enough). Despite their age and being siblings, they had 3 very healthy kittens. One of them still lives with us, and has never had any problems.

So, in short, while I would avoid any future mating between your two axies, I also wouldn't worry too much about this one accident. Odds are, the babies will be fine.

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I agree with EmbryH. As axies gene pool is already pretty small, it's not very smart in the long run to let them inbreed and make the gene pool even smaller. But for this one batch I wouldn't worry too much. Though if I were you I'd let their future owners know and tell them not to breed two of those babies together under any circumstances.
 
Thanks for all your ideas, guys. I totally feel the inbreeding thing - had I known, I would have simply have frozen the eggs when I first found them, which is the course of action I will follow from now on. I agree that inbreeding definitely shouldn't be encouraged, but likewise, my clutch is now two days hatched and feeding heartily on freshly hatched brine shrimp. I could not cull them as they were too old in my mind to cull humanely and...well, frankly, I couldn't have done it even if I wanted to.

I have put out adverts for the babies and have received astounding responses from friends, family and even the odd zookeeper. I have told them outright that the parents are inbred and said that if they receive a breeding pair, they are to freeze the eggs to prevent further inbreeding. All future owners have agreed to this, and for some reason, knowing the parents are inbred doesn't seem to have hindered them at all. Even the experienced zookeeper, a specialist in newts and salamanders, doesn't seem fazed at all.

But I have learned a lesson from all this: check out any suspicions early on! I definitely wouldn't do this again, but for this one batch, I have made an exception because I wanted to have the experience of raising one of my babies' clutches.
 
Can I ask about egg freezing? Why do you freeze the eggs ant just remove the from the tank? Or what's the best way to deal with unwanted eggs? Not that I have any I'm just curious.
 
Dear Liz,

It is quite a common practice for eggs to be frozen if they are less than five days old and the owner would have a lot of difficulty either raising or rehoming the babies should they hatch. It's worth remembering that while first-time mothers and young lotls may only produce 50 eggs or so, like my Embry, some axolotls can produce over 1,000 eggs! The consensus seems to be that eggs younger than five days have not yet developed feeling, although I am unsure as to the details of this. Generally speaking this appears to be the most commonly used practice for culling very young eggs (please correct me if I am wrong).

If you removed the eggs from the tank and kept them in tank water or dechlorinated, aged water, chances are they would hatch within 14-21 days depending on the temperature of the room. From what I know, freezing is one of the few humane ways to discard eggs. If they are accidentally or purposefully thrown into a bin they will dry up and die, but freezing also prevents the eggs from developing.
 
Thankyou for the explanation, it makes perfect sense. So say you freeze them all like the day they are laid or something, then what do you do, leave the frozen for how long, then dispose of them how? If you took them out like a week later could it be possible that they could still hatch out somehow?

I already had one batch of babies, around 50 eggs, and whilst it has been great to see them grow, I have some 20 or so still to sell, as I am disabled, it really is too much for me to care for this amount of eggs, since my guys live together, and they love to hug I wouldn't want to separate them, but if they breed again I need to be able to control it. It all happened so fast, I hadn't realised there was other options, and I did my level best to raise every egg, and only lost minimal amount.

I am curious to know how this freezing works, and if it seems the most humane way to to it. Thank you so much for your information so far :happy:
 
Liz Roome said:
Thankyou for the explanation, it makes perfect sense. So say you freeze them all like the day they are laid or something, then what do you do, leave the frozen for how long, then dispose of them how? If you took them out like a week later could it be possible that they could still hatch out somehow?
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Freezing will kill the embryos - you only need to wait until the whole thing is frozen - overnight is good.
I usually defrost the eggs and put them out as bird food. Or you can dig them into the ground as fertiliser.
 
Thank you, Auntiejude, for your knowledgeable reply!

If you are still looking for homes for your babies, Liz, could you try the For Sale section of this forum? I also found that some zoos, sanctuaries, schools, colleges and national parks are willing to take on babies. I am lucky in that one chap wants 15 of my babies, which is a huge coup, but that still leaves me with over 35 babies to find homes for - I have 10 friends and family who would like one, plus a LFS that says they will take 15, which leaves only 10 to find homes for (I am somewhat reluctant to give some to the LFS and would rather see them go to nice homes directly, but if I cannot rehome them I will be stuck). Luckily my father has a 3 foot set up that I can raise a few juveniles in if necessary, but I totally see your reasons for wanting to exhibit control over how many you raise. I was a little silly and thought I would lose lots of them, so I kept all 55! :dizzy:
 
I did not know about the freezing thing. I have just been culling eggs by siphoning them up when I clean the tank. I pour the dirty axolotl water outside in my backyard though, so they probably dry up or get eaten pretty fast - and I always cull them right away. Once they start having obvious shape to them I feel sorry for them and let them develop. If they are just a ball of undifferentiated cells though, I can't imagine they suffer at all - pain requires having a brain to process and perceive the pain signals.

As to inbreeding - in this situation I would keep raising the clutch you have and just advise anyone interested in them that they are not suitable for breeding, only for keeping as pets. I wouldn't raise any more clutches unless you switch things up so you know they won't be inbred.
Inbreeding is fairly common and not harmful for most amphibians, but since axolotls are so rare in the wild, doing what we reasonably can to preserve their genetic diversity is a good idea.
 
Petersgirl said:
Thank you, Auntiejude, for your knowledgeable reply!

If you are still looking for homes for your babies, Liz, could you try the For Sale section of this forum? I also found that some zoos, sanctuaries, schools, colleges and national parks are willing to take on babies. I am lucky in that one chap wants 15 of my babies, which is a huge coup, but that still leaves me with over 35 babies to find homes for - I have 10 friends and family who would like one, plus a LFS that says they will take 15, which leaves only 10 to find homes for (I am somewhat reluctant to give some to the LFS and would rather see them go to nice homes directly, but if I cannot rehome them I will be stuck). Luckily my father has a 3 foot set up that I can raise a few juveniles in if necessary, but I totally see your reasons for wanting to exhibit control over how many you raise. I was a little silly and thought I would lose lots of them, so I kept all 55! :dizzy:
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Totally, I had like 50 or so babies to start with and only lost about 8, I have sold a few and I have an add here, on Gumtree and preloved. I have sold some, but thought I would have sold more. There's not even any shops round here buy let alone take them. I am giving some to a friend who has kids, and they love them, and someone at work is buying some, but I am still going to have about 20. Allowing for keeping 1 or 2 for myself.

It's costing me an absolute fortune in frozen food, water conditioner, etc. I am not making anything this at all. If she lays eggs again, I'd have to cull, they're suck good friends, I couldn't bear to separate them, in the same breath though, I don't really relish the though of terminating some of their offspring, I do feel more comfortable practising this freezing technique, maybe only raising a couple. I had about 5 lecustic grey babies, but that may not happen again. Chance you take I guess. But all fab advice here, and explanation. :happy:
 
Your situation is just like mine, Liz! I thought it would be lovely to raise at least one of my babies' clutches, and why not the clutch of the pretty Embry? I didn't cull any and ended up with 71 babies (not the 55 I thought originally). I posted all over the local Facebook buy/sell/swap pages, put up flyers everywhere and rang every local animal care based institution. Luckily another LFS will raise 40 babies for me, and I have around 19 owners lined up, leaving me with only 11 babies to find homes for - which can go to the chap who originally asked for them :)

I was very, very lucky and wouldn't raise them again - whether it was Embry and Jack trying again or another combination of any of my 4, as I've found it took quite a bit of dedication and time each day to raise them (not hours and hours a day, but a good chunk in preparation etc). I've made no money at all - my babies are being given away free, gratis. I'm screening each owner first, although I know I can't screen the LFS terribly well. I would freeze any more eggs I found.

I would say if keeping axolotls is a hobby, maybe raising a clutch is something you could try once, but personally I wouldn't do it again and I definitely would have cut down my eggs to 20 or so if I'd known how many there actually were and how hard it might be to find them homes.
 
The trick is to raise only the babies you know you have a good chance of rehoming. My girls lay 800+ eggs as a time, so I have no option but to cull.

As soon as my last lot of eggs were laid I approached a LFS and a small local chain of pet stores, and worked on it from there. I kept 80 eggs, had 65 hatch and 58 survived.

Hard work, but I love raising the little larvae - they are my babies.
 
I should have listened to your sound advice in the first place, Auntiejude :) You did advise cutting down to 20 but I was so convinced my eggs would somehow all be wiped out that I kept them all just in case >.<

The larvae are gorgeous though - such tiny eyes and bodies, with their little beating hearts, munching away on orange BBS and getting those cute, little squat bellies! I guess I just got mine at a bad time. I recently found out I was going to be laid off from work, which totally got me down, so maybe I was on a bit of a downbeat when I last posted. If I'm honest my axolotls fill the 'baby' gap for me - I don't have room or enough money to have any children yet so the axolotls are like my children, the larvae more so. I look at them sometimes, then look at Embry and think, 'you did a great job, princess. They're great.' They've just gotten so huge in the last two weeks! So big and full of life.
 
Petersgirl said:
I should have listened to your sound advice in the first place, Auntiejude :) You did advise cutting down to 20 but I was so convinced my eggs would somehow all be wiped out that I kept them all just in case >.<

The larvae are gorgeous though - such tiny eyes and bodies, with their little beating hearts, munching away on orange BBS and getting those cute, little squat bellies! I guess I just got mine at a bad time. I recently found out I was going to be laid off from work, which totally got me down, so maybe I was on a bit of a downbeat when I last posted. If I'm honest my axolotls fill the 'baby' gap for me - I don't have room or enough money to have any children yet so the axolotls are like my children, the larvae more so. I look at them sometimes, then look at Embry and think, 'you did a great job, princess. They're great.' They've just gotten so huge in the last two weeks! So big and full of life.
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Chin up! You are doing your best :)
In the future, I am only saving a small number of eggs to raise because I kinda bit off more than I could chew these last few months. The babies that I am raising are almost at selling age, but I am going to wait until September... when the weather is a bit more cooperative for shipping. Yes, raising them is certainly very time consuming. And I spend even more time than I really need to because I am so captivated by them, it's hard to walk away :)
 
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