If you breed selectively to achieve a new coloration, can you ... give the breed a name?

[anxiouslotl]

I noticed a few of my juvenile cfb's have unusual color patterns (brownish skin with black dots on the back). It grows out over time, but I wonder if they could be bred over time to look like that as adults. Would I be able to give them a latin name and would that be recognized anywhere? Thinking of salamandra solling here which also doesn't appear in nature.

I prefer the normal-looking ones, but..

 

[Niels D]

If it really stands out you can choose to give your breeding strain any name you'd like, just like some add a location to the species name. That's not the case regarding to an official Latin name describing the species. No matter how different it looks, it remains the same species. Solingen animals do appear in the wild. They're a group S. t. terrestris which were isolated over the ice age. They're considered a subspecies.

 

[JM29]

I wonder if they could be bred over time to look like that as adults

Probably yes,
with a lot of inbreeding risks along the years

 

[anxiouslotl]

I have another newt obsession night and have been reading a lot. Came across this post Strange Cynops from Japanese Pet Site - possibly wolterstorffi?

So,... I guess roughly that's what they *could* look like in the end. It's pretty funny I think but cfb's might not simply have black backs, but actually black backs with black dots.
I guess the brown tone in my juveniles might be too much red.... brown.. red.. kinda close I think.

Hm. Further down the replies they talk about cynops orphicus, which looks much more like maybe 2% of my juveniles. Seems there's always more to learn about amphibians.

Probably yes,
with a lot of inbreeding risks along the years

Yea I'm also pretty sure if I did that I'd probably neglect a bunch of other good genetic traits and introduce some problems. I can actually think of better criteria to breed by, like growth speed for instance.. (which is most likely something nature selects for too)

 

[anxiouslotl]

Newt ID/ confirmation?

A few months ago I was browsing a pet store and came across an interesting looking fire belly, so I brought it home. I was looking online to try to ID it but it is like no firebelly I have ever seen. A friend of mine happened to buy two of the same kind with less visible spots from the same...

www.caudata.org

Here is another thread where someone suspects to have a cynops orphicus. I think at this point it's time to show you mine. I only have very bad photos right now cause I took them in a hurry. These two newts in the photos have the same parents. You can see the different colours even with the blur though.

Sorry, more layman speech incoming:
..... one of my juveniles also has the red "armpits" and a little red line on its back. I wonder if it means mine are ... not pure but have some trace orphicus DNA. Or if orphicus is simply this exact mutation.

 

[Niels D]

There are a lot of different strains of C. orientalis in the hobby. Maybe some of them aren't even C. orientalis and even a different species which isn't described yet. Maybe it's just a different appearance due to locality. I've got a strain (J. Jansen) which has little green green specks over it's entire body and it's blue/grey (even a little blotched) instead of black. I will probably never know if it's C. orientalis or another species, so I won't mix this strain with other C. orientalis strains just to be sure.

 

[anxiouslotl]

There are a lot of different strains of C. orientalis in the hobby. Maybe some of them aren't even C. orientalis and even a different species which isn't described yet. Maybe it's just a different appearance due to locality. I've got a strain (J. Jansen) which has little green green specks over it's entire body and it's blue/grey (even a little blotched) instead of black. I will probably never know if it's C. orientalis or another species, so I won't mix this strain with other C. orientalis strains just to be sure.

Yes, I checked the species list in your signature last night. You really, really like the black and red look, don't you? So many firebelly species I've never heard of before. I'll be receiving c.e. popei later this year from the Netherlands.. probably direct relatives of yours? What a beautiful animal.

I will probably never know if it's C. orientalis or another species, so I won't mix this strain with other C. orientalis strains just to be sure.

Can a normal hobbyist really ever tell? I got mine from a random private owner who gave up his hobby and said they'd had them for ages. Seemed like they bought them in a pet shop long ago, but at the time I didn't think of asking. I quickly managed to pick up on the difference between the Chinese and the Japanese firebelly, but had no idea there would be more subspecies. It actually takes a while of digging to find out about their existence.

Don't some smart science people do genetic analysis on newts? I know the botanics hobby has the same issue with long debates whether some localised forms are their own subspecies or not.

Even if they are the same subspecies, mixing them seems like a bit of a waste of a potential breeding opportunity..

By the way, aren't you worried about your J. Jansen.... going extinct in aquariums? I mean, there aren't many breeders of them, right? Shouldn't it be our mission to create as many colonies in european households as possible? (of course, restricted to owners who will properly provide for them)
maybe I'll get a decisive "NO!" back, but as far as I understand, aquariums may be an important step to species survival. ..?



Edit: I think I might end up doing it and separate the funny-colored ones. Will report back on progress in 20 years I guess...

 

[Niels D]

I have back ups of almost all the species that I keep and I'm actively working with other keepers of Paramesotriton species to keep these in the hobby, because raising the offspring is challenging. I'm all for durability and sustainable newt keeping and breeding so that's a good point you're bringing up. It's my mission to be one of the ambassadors for the species/strains I keep.

Genetics are used to distinguish species. Problem is that not all species are described and identified. We can help as hobbyist to be responsible when it comes to keeping, breeding and the "distribution" of newts in the hobby. A lot of these species can hybridize....

The popei I keep are the "South Okinawa" strain animals. They've got lots of gold dust (green blotches). I will bring some CB2024 to Gersfeld this year.

 

[anxiouslotl]

I managed to take a photo of the little dude (or miss) today. Had to wait for him to finish shedding his skin first.
And I'm not sure if I just took photos of just one newt or two different ones.
Anyhow, here is the coloration.

No longer sure if I'm really going to try breeding this, it could be an awful lot of work...

I have back ups of almost all the species that I keep and I'm actively working with other keepers of Paramesotriton species to keep these in the hobby, because raising the offspring is challenging. I'm all for durability and sustainable newt keeping and breeding so that's a good point you're bringing up. It's my mission to be one of the ambassadors for the species/strains I keep.

Genetics are used to distinguish species. Problem is that not all species are described and identified. We can help as hobbyist to be responsible when it comes to keeping, breeding and the "distribution" of newts in the hobby. A lot of these species can hybridize....

The popei I keep are the "South Okinawa" strain animals. They've got lots of gold dust (green blotches). I will bring some CB2024 to Gersfeld this year.

I would never hybridize, no worries.

My popei are also on the way to Gersfeld, I might just be one of your recipients. (in a roundabout way. I couldn't get there by myself, it's just too far for me, but thankfully a very nice attendee will pick them up on my behalf)

 

[Niels D]

Hard to say something due to the foto quality. It's hard to make aquarium pics. I'd say that it's a C. orientalis strain. It looks like they've got a dark olive colour, maybe a little blotched. I've seen strains which look like this. I'm not saying that this couldn't be orphicus, I've only seen them once, but in my memory they tend to be lighter/more brown in colour.

 

[anxiouslotl]

It really should be an orientalis, it's just 1 out of 50 juveniles that look like this. Makes me wonder though if orphicus is just an oddly coloured orientalis population. Well I guess if that was the case, they'd already have found out. Okay.