Gutload

[rob]

I'm curious if anyone has any feedback about this gutload mix. I have been trying to design a good mix to offer through my business. I believe this is a well portioned mix that would be good for crickets, mealworms and even fruit flies or microworm cultures. I currently am testing it with each (first 24 hour peroid will be over around 4pm today). This is intended for insects going to both reptiles and amphibians.

Acerola Berry Extract
Alfalfa Powder
Apple Fibre Powder
Barley Flakes
Barley Grass Powder
Bilberry Extract
Brewer’s Yeast
Broccoli Powder
Brown Rice Bran Powder
Buckwheat Grits
Carrot Powder
Cracked Oats
Cracked Rye
Cracked Triticale
Cracked Wheat
Flaked Corn
Flax Seed
Full Spectrum Grape Extract
Gelatin
Ginkgo Biloba Extract
Green Tea Extract
Hulled Millet
Kelp Sea Algae Powder
Licorice Root Extract
Milk Thistle Extract
Non-Dairy Probiotic Cultures (L. Casei, L. Plantarum, L. Rhamnosus, B. Bifdum, B. Breve, B. Longum, L. Acidophilus)
Potato Flakes
Red Beet Powder
Roasted Peanuts
Rolled Oats
Siberian Ginseng Extract
Soy Lecithin Powder
Soy Sprouts Powder
Spinach Powder
Spirulina Blue-Green Algae Powder
Stevia Leaves Powder
Sugar
Sunflower Seed
Tomato Powder
Vegetable Protein
Wheat Grass Powder
White Sesame Seed
Yellow Flax Seed

Gelatin is in the mix so that should the people wish to use it for fruit flies and/or a cricket feed and water mix it will take on a nice hard consistency after microwaving and cooling down. Let me know what you think. So far I've heard some concern about the broccoli and spinach as they're calcium binders. I have placed them in this gutload to help ensure the insects are getting a wide variety of vitamins and minerals as possible. Also someone suggested I remove the sugar (main intent for the sugar was to be a food for the yeast when it is moistend). Lastly the roasted peanuts will be changed for fresh peanuts under someones advice.

Thanks for any and all feedback. I am fairly happy with the mix and several other people have expressed similar opinions, but I want to hear from other people as well before I actually begin to sell it, especially since I know some of you are quite knowledgable about this.

 

[edward]

Hi Rob,
What is the ratio of A to D3 to E in the mix after formulation? Also what is the total ratio of calcium to phosphorus after formulation? Is this affected by any of the supplements? What is the phytoestrogen amounts in the grains and other supplements as there is anecdotal evidence that this can disrupt the breeding cycle of some anurans?
Also with the green tea extract, you are aware that caffine is toxic to invertebrates as well as amphibians?
Some quick thoughts,
Ed

 

[rob]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the feedback. I have not had the nutritional analysis of the gutload done. I intend to have it done eventually, but the costs of it are quite large to have it done and as a new business, a serious hindrance. I am however glad you pointed out these things as it will help me be aware of what to look for when I do get it analyzed.

I am aware that A3:E should be 100:10:1 and that C should be 2:1 (or 2:0 since most insects have enough phosphorus to make up for it). I am not aware at what levels phytoestrogen should be considered a problem. Can you tell me?

I am curious though, that since the general method of gutloading from most people I've talked to is feeding fresh fruits and vegetables plus some grains now again, how does that effect the ratios of the A3:E and C? I know that it's important in a vitamin supplement and I've always made sure any of the vitamins I use were in the right ratios. However I've always just fed various fruits and veggies to my crickets prior to feeding them to my salamanders and bearded dragon. I'm unsure of how significant a role it would play in the gutload if dusting is accurate? I do realize some of the gutload will be in their gut when they are consumed, passing it on to the animal, but I was more concentrated on feeding them healthy high quality foods that would benefit the crickets after digestion (IE make them in better ‘health’ if you will).

I am aware that caffeine is toxic to invertebrates, amphibians, reptiles, fish, plants and even (I believe) mammals. However, the green tea extract has a very small amount of caffeine in it, but adds many antioxidants. I also use a very tiny amount of green tea in the mix. The small percentage combines with the small quantity used made it seem negligible. I had considered its effects, but I have tested it on crickets, mealworms and fruit flies and haven't had any deaths (other then fruit flies that had lived their typical life span). What is your opinion on this?

Please, feel free to be as brutal as you desire when responding. I want to ensure what I produce is best for the animals it will eventually consume the insects. So far out of everyone I have talked to about it, around 10, you're the first one to mention these angles and I would like to be well informed.

I do think that the contents of the mix though will make it a great gutload (obviously, or else I would not have selected them). I am not static though. If better options are available that I am made aware of I would gladly consider them.

Thanks for your feedback. Please, as I said before, be as brutal as you wish in your next response. Also, if you do see anything that you think positive, please point it out. Gives me an idea of the strengths and weaknesses of my formula, which will be an evolving mix.

 

[edward]

Hi Rob,
Lets back this up a step. Are you looking to adjust the nutritional value of the insects or are you attempting to administer the needed items through gut loading? These are different goals and require a different approach.

And phytoestrogens do not need to be more available than ppms.
ED

 

[rob]

Hi Ed,

I'm unsure of your question, but I will try to answer it. I do not intend for this to replace people dusting their insects prior to feeding. I intend this to be in addition to that. I am unsure which of your two options it falls under. Is gutload an incorrect term for the goal I wish to accomplish with it?

 

[edward]

Hi Rob,
No to some extent I consider your term the correct one. If you are trying to change the calcium to phosphorus ratio then I would consider that calcium loading (contrary to the many labeled containers in the stores).
The reason I asked is that gut loading tends to mean different things to different people.
In general, I suspect you are making it much more complicated than is necessary. To gut load, you need to feed the crickets for between 48 and 72 hours. At this point the crickets will have replenished all of the nutrients lost during thier period of poor nutrition prior to you obtaining the crickets.
As for the levels/potential effects of things like caffeine, I would still avoid it as sublethal levels can still increase metabolic rates causing unnecessary stress. You will still need to determine the levels of the fat soluable vitamins, as these are fat stored and can potentially cause multiple problems.
One of the things that concerns me a little bit is that people tend to treat thier pets as if they have the same metabolism they do, in other words, if its good for me, it must be good for them thought process. (Maybe I'm a little too conservative) This is the thought process that causes people to put cats on taurine deficent vegetarian diets, or give chocolate to dogs (Of which I am not accusing you, I just want you to be aware of the possible long term consequensces). Until there has been a little more testing I would be careful about wholesale translation of our metabolism to herps (this also does not address the mass/dose dependent effects).
Some more thoughts,
Ed

 

[rob]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for all your help and suggestions, they are much appreciated. I did not read into anything you said nor think that you were accusing me of anything.

It may go quicker if we continue our responses in email (as we have been doing) and I will post up a summary after we've finished our discussions to give everyone a recapp of what I've learned and decided upon.

Thanks again,
Rob

 

[rob]

To all who were interested:

Ed and I discussed much and decided a shorter list of ingredients would better suit the gutload I was trying to create. The items I listed above needed to be streamlined to save time, money and to remove any that have not shown any benefit to reptiles and amphibians.

If anyone is curious about more specifics, please feel free to email me and I'll share the advice and suggestions that Ed and I talked about to help me decide on a final list.

Also if anyone is interested in seeing what the final list of ingredients will be, please let me know.