Guessing game: marmoratus or pygmaeus?

[rubén]

I propose to guess what species is this : Triturus marmoratus , Triturus pygmaeus or an hybrid animal? I know , it's difficult

 

[caleb]

Well, the belly looks like pygmaeus to me, the back looks a little bit more like marmoratus.

I'm sure Sergé will have a good idea which it is.

 

[sergé]

I agree with Caleb, but i know from experience that marmoratus animals from Iberia can have very white bellies (I had ones from Coïmbra ones). If it was a male you could tell by the crest in breeding season. But this female is difficult, but because of the rather large head...I put my bets on marmoratus.

 

[rubén]

Yes , right Sergé... it's a marmoratus female , but she has exactly the same aspect than the transition points of central Portugal where lives forms with a really complicated status . This animal comes from a glaciar lake of cantabrian mountains ( 1.600 m. ) , in the north-west of Spain , and have this strange morphology but, of course , are Triturus marmoratus . I only wanted to show the importance of the genetic status in front of the simple aspect/morphology of the animals .

 

[sergé]

Hi Rubén,

great, keep them coming! This discussions are interesting. By the way, i once visited Sierra de Gredos and found on the way to the Laguna Grande (roughly halfway between the end of the asfalted road and the Laguna) a small lake in which I saw a dead Triturus marmoratus. This was also high I think 1800 m. (but I can look it up in my notes if you want). It is interesting to see that the do very well at these high levels. Malkmus has shown (a picture is also in his new Portugal book) that Triturus marmoratus from Serra de Montemuro (I think it was this name) from northern Portugal can become very dark coloured.

 

[rubén]

Yes , it's very interesting to see how much high can reaches Triturus marmoratus in the Iberian peninsula . I have seen this specie at 1.600 m. in the Cantabrian mountains and 2.000 in all the mountains of central Spain ( Gredos , Guadarrama , Somosierra ) although is more abundant between 900 - 1.400 m. , where competition with Triturus boscai is low , under this altitude the summer dryness and competition with Pleurodeles it's harder for them .
It could be very interesting to see the marbled newts of Montemuro mountains , I heard that are really big , robust and blacks . Have you any photograph?
( I didn't forget the habitat photos of Salamandra salamandra in Bosnia , I only have to digitize them this week )

 

[rubén]

Another example ( I think ) of the complicated status of Triturus pygmaeus if we only take care of the colour/morphology : This is a pygmaeus from Cádiz mountains ( Grazalema Natural Park ) . The place is , without doubts , in the range distribution of Triturus pygmaeus . The habitat is peculiar , with an hiper-humid and cold mediterranean weather ( 2.500-3.000 mm/age of rain!! ) with forests of Abies pinsapo , Quercus faginea ssp. alpestris and Ilex aquifolium . The result ; this colour/morphology , very similar to T. marmoratus , only the clearer belly makes the difference ( unfortunately I don't keep photographs of adults )

 

[rubén]

This is the amazing breeding point for the precedent pygmaeus : A necropolis of The Bronze Age in Cádiz mountains .