Greek Alpine Newts

[david]

Has anybody kept Triturus alpestris veluchiensis? If so, are they as aquatic as apuanus?

 

[mike]

I have never kept this subspecies, but as their altitudinal range is 1800-2000 metres, similar to T.a.apuanus, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[eric]

Hi David

My alpestris breeding colony is from Montenegro. I don't know if they are Veluchiensis but Montenegro is very close to Greece.
I can't compare with my Apuanus because my Apuanus are too young, but my Montenegro Alpine newts are always in water. One interesting point, I have many different skin pattern in my adults!
I have about 30 juveniles and 100s of eggs and larvaes, so if you are interested.......

 

[mike]

Hi Eric,
Your alpines would then be T.a.serdarus, there were two other subspecies described from Montenegro, T.a.montenegrinus and T.a.piperianus, but these are no longer recognised, on the basis of morphometric and phylogenetic tests.
There is considerable variation between the six recognised subspecies, could you post some pictures of your animals?

 

[caleb]

Eric- there are four different subspecies of alpestris that have been described in Montenegro- T. a. alpestris, T. a. montenegrinus, T. a. piperianus and T. a. serdarus. I'm not 100% sure whether these are all still regarded as full subspecies. montenegrinus, piperianus and serdarus are 100% neotenous, with very restricted ranges.

The only veluchiensis I have ever heard of in captivity belonged to someone in Scandinavia who was on the old amphibian listserv list.

 

[caleb]

Mike- we seem to have crossed over!

Do you have a reference relating to montenegrinus and piperianus being discarded as subspecies- I'd be interested to know more about this.

I'd read that serdarus were fully neotenous, so I would have thought Eric's animals were more likely to be T. a. alpestris.

 

[mike]

Caleb,
Serdarus is found in the Durmitor mountains at 1285 metres, which suggests that it is a localised neotenous subspecies, although the author, A.Zuiderwuk dosn't mention that. It is found at a lower altitude than montenegrinus and piperianus, and reaches a length of 7-9 centimetres.
This info is taken mostly from the Atlas of Amphibians and Reptiles of Europe. (1997). Zuiderwuk cites many references under Distribution, Systemics and Biology, although These two, I think are relevant.
Andreone, F., Dore, B. (1992):Adaptation of the reproductive cycle in T.alpestris to an unpredictable habit. Amphibia-Reptilia, Leiden 13:251-261.
Andreone, F., Dore, B., Usai, P., Paraninfo, A. (1993a): Skin morphology in larval, paedomorphic and metamorphosed Alpine newts, T.a.apuanus . Alytes, Paris 11 (1):25-35.

 

[sergé]

In the new German Handbuch (Handbuch der Reptilien und Amphibien Europas, Band 4/ IIA, Schwanzlurche (Urodela) IIA, Salamandridae II: Triturus. K. Grossenbacher & B. Thiesmeier (herausgeber), Aula-Verlag, ISBN 3-89104-673-1) the whole issue of these subspecies is described in detail. The neotenic appearance was a reason to describe them as subspecies, but genetic research shows they are not very different from each other (don't have the exact reference here). Besides that within some of these populations also normal animals are found. All Balkan populations are considered as alpestris nowadays...except for the veluchiensis which is also clearly geographically isolated.
In normal alpestris and apuanus populatiosn also neotenic individuals can occur.
However, neoteny is something different than the issue if you can kep them fully aquatic. To my opinion it is, on the long term, not good to keep them fully aquatic all year round, although they do pretty well mostly.

 

[hayden]

Eric I am interested in buying any one of your alpine newts... If the offer is good for me as well