Question: Genetics: Wild or Leucy with albino recessive

[Spartacus]

Hi all

I've been trying to learn about genetics lately, and was advised in my breeding that, in order to maybe get an albino, I would have to breed a Dd golden albino with a leucistic who had recessive albino.
I'm just wondering how this sort of leucistic comes about? (or wildtype)
Does it have to be a leucistic or wildtype born from a golden albino?

I have two female goldens who are DD, and when bred with my leucistics, always comes out wildtype. Would this wildtype be recessive for albino?

Thanks to anyone who can answer this! I love learning about this and finally getting my head around it all, but every time I figure one thing out, new questions arise!

 

[auntiejude]

I don't follow your explanation there.

Albinos of various kinds are a double recessive gene : aa
To have albino offspring you just need 2 parents who carry a recessive albino gene.

e.g. my 2 wildtypes bred, 1 in 4 babies were albino because they are both Aa

Any axie can carry a recessive albino gene, it is only expressed if the inherit one from each parent. And any baby from one albino parent will carry an albino gene.

I have two female goldens who are DD, and when bred with my leucistics, always comes out wildtype. Would this wildtype be recessive for albino?

Yes. It also means that your leucistics do not carry an albino gene.

Of course the best way to guarantee an albino baby is to breed 2 albinos....

 

[Spartacus]

Sorry if it's confusing. Albinos are hard to come by, so I'm trying to figure out genetics, and a way that I can get a combination that will produce some albinos.

So basically, if an axolotl comes from an albino or golden albino, regardless what type it is, it will carry a recessive albino gene, and if bred with the right axolotl, could produce an albino?

I ask because I am wondering if it is worth keeping some of the wildtype babies from the golden and leucistic parents, and that one day, if bred with one of my goldens, could produce albinos

 

[auntiejude]

Yea and yes!
Genetics is confusing at the best of times, the fact that we're dealing with 4 pairs of colour genes, along with minor variations within those, makes it a tough subject!

 

[Spartacus]

Thanks very much every little bit of information helps my understanding!

 

[oceanblue]

Your wild type offspring are compulsory carriers of both albino and leucistic. If crossed with golden albino not carrying leucistic half the offspring will be golden. If crossed with leucistic not carrying albino half the offspring will be leucistic. If two of them are crossed then you will get the ratio one white albino (leucistic +albino) two golden albinos, two leucistics and one wild type. This assumes other possible recessives such as melanoid or axanthic are not present or lethal recessives distort the ratios.

A key to understanding the genetics is to know what you are starting with. The statement any axie can carry an albino gene is only true if it has an albino in its ancestry! The same applies to leucistic.

 

[usafaux2004]

Anyone have any links on all the morph origins? My eggs (in my topic) are about to hatch/are doing so, and some look yellow/white/clear while others are obviously wildtype. Parents are Wildtype and Leucistic.

 

[Spartacus]

So confusing haha I understand genetics in the terms of punnet squares but when we get to the carriers of recessive genes, it gets complicated! But I understand, I just don't think I can figure out matchings with my hatchlings very well 0_o wish I'd paid more attention in science class. Thanks for the explanations, it's very helpful

 

[usafaux2004]

So confusing haha I understand genetics in the terms of punnet squares but when we get to the carriers of recessive genes, it gets complicated! But I understand, I just don't think I can figure out matchings with my hatchlings very well 0_o wish I'd paid more attention in science class. Thanks for the explanations, it's very helpful

Theoretically, with a sample of a couple of hundred eggs, it should be easy to see what the parent's genetics are like. If I kept all 600+ eggs mine had, I bet I'd see all types shown in the bunch. It would be hard, but doable to figure out the trace lineage.

 

[Spartacus]

I have the basics of the parents genetics, like whether my golds are DD or Dd, and what offspring most match ups would make, just trying to fill in the gaps so I can find the right combination. I'll try and explain in case anyone feels like offering advice:
Ziggy: Golden albino female DD (When matched with leucistic males, only wildtypes)
Haku: Leucistic male (definitely not recessive albino)
Hephaestion: male leucistic (because I've never had these two separated, I don't know who fathers which eggs, so until he next breeds, could be recessive to albino, but probably not)
Dickie: female wildtype (half leucistic, half wildtype offspring, matched with leucistics. Planning to breed with golden male to figure out if he is DD or Dd)
Eugene: Golden albino male. Only bred with golden before, all gold offspring. Hoping to breed to wild female
Charles: Golden albino female. Only bred to Eugene, all gold. Hoping to breed to Hephaestion to see if he is recessive for albino.

Then I have two more female goldens, Zazu and Bobby-Corwen. Zazu is the mother of my wildtype eggs, paired with Haku (leucistic) so she must be DD. B-C has yet to be bred, but I believe she may actually be one of my offspring from Charles and Eugene.

I've been advised to try putting female golds with leucistic males, to figure out if the golds are DD or Dd, and in hopes that the leucys are recessive for albino. I have two more females to try.
I was also suggested to match my wild female with my gold boy, yet to happen yet.

If I can't get an albino out of any of these combinations, which match-up would produce offspring which would be best to keep, to breed to one of my axies in the future, in order to get an albino?
I also have wildtype and leucistic babies, from the wildtype/leucistic pairing, but if my leucys aren't recessive to albino, they are probably no good to me?

Feel free to ignore all that if it's too confusing, just figured I'd throw it out there in case anyone is interested in helping me make better sense of it all

 

[oceanblue]

I'm unsure quite what you are seeking. Are you trying to get a white albino ie one with two copies of the albino gene and two copies of the leucistic gene?

If your gold crossed with leucistic are all wild types then crossing these offspring will give you one in six white albinos. Since you have two golden females and two leucistic males you could raise separate batches and then cross them to avoid direct inbreeding which is preferable to brother sister breeding if possible.

 

[Spartacus]

I just want any form of white albino. Any combination is fine, as long as it is possible.
That's a good idea, cause I definitely want to avoid inbreeding as much as possible. If only I'd known how useful all those wildtype babies that I raised and gave away would be to my albino mission, I could have an albino by now!

I'll stop asking questions now, but thank you so much for all your advice and wisdom! Hopefully I can get some albinos in the future! It's such a long time to wait between breeding seasons

 

[Vyaavi]

Oh gosh, let me try my hand at this...

F. Ziggy: aa M- DD
M. Haku: AA -- dd
M. Hephaestion: A- -- dd
F. Dickie: AA M- Dd
M. Eugene: aa MM DD
F. Charles: aa MM DD
F. Zazu: aa M- DD
F. Bobby-Corwen: aa M- D-

I marked the leucistics as -- for the M gene because it can be hard to tell apart a white melanoid and a leucistic. If they have eye shine, they have iridiphores and are therefore M-, but lacking iridiphores means they're probably mm. Their offspring would help here too - if you've bred Haku or Heph, did you notice some babies with pure black eyes and some with shiny rings? The M gene doesn't matter too much in albinism, it's the difference between an albino and an albino melanoid. They look the same. But the presence of mm in your leucistics would make breeding an albino MUCH easier!

I would try crossing Heph with Zazu or Ziggy. That will let you know right away if he's an albino carrier - if he is, the offspring will be a mix of Aa -- Dd (dark melanoid or wildtype depending on the M gene) and aa -- Dd (gold or albino melanoid, again varying by M gene). Otherwise you're looking at two generations to get any albinos from this lot: cross Dickie and Heph to get a few dd offspring, then cross those with one of the golds and you'll get some aa dd. Or as suggested above, you could mate the wildtypes from a gold/leucistic cross which resulted in all wildtypes.

The Heph/Zazu or Ziggy cross would have different results depending on their M genes... Let's assume he's Aa for this experiment. If EVEN ONE of them is MM, you'll get 50% gold and 50% wildtype. This would also obscure the M gene of the other one, meaning that if one is MM the other could be MM, Mm, or mm and the offspring would have the same color ratio. If they're both Mm, you'd get 37% wildtype, 37% gold, 12% dark melanoid, and 12% albino melanoid. If the female is Mm and Heph is mm, you'll get an even split between wildtype, gold, dark melanoid, and albino melanoid.

I don't recommend a Heph/Charles cross because it would result in AaM-Dd or aaM-Dd. You would not get any albinos. I base this on Charles' history of throwing all golds when crossed with a gold - she's very, very likely to be homozygous for everything.

Whew!! Lots of genetics! I hope this helps. Let me know if I can clear anything up!

 

[Spartacus]

Oh gosh, let me try my hand at this...

F. Ziggy: aa M- DD
M. Haku: AA -- dd
M. Hephaestion: A- -- dd
F. Dickie: AA M- Dd
M. Eugene: aa MM DD
F. Charles: aa MM DD
F. Zazu: aa M- DD
F. Bobby-Corwen: aa M- D-

I marked the leucistics as -- for the M gene because it can be hard to tell apart a white melanoid and a leucistic. If they have eye shine, they have iridiphores and are therefore M-, but lacking iridiphores means they're probably mm. Their offspring would help here too - if you've bred Haku or Heph, did you notice some babies with pure black eyes and some with shiny rings? The M gene doesn't matter too much in albinism, it's the difference between an albino and an albino melanoid. They look the same. But the presence of mm in your leucistics would make breeding an albino MUCH easier!

I would try crossing Heph with Zazu or Ziggy. That will let you know right away if he's an albino carrier - if he is, the offspring will be a mix of Aa -- Dd (dark melanoid or wildtype depending on the M gene) and aa -- Dd (gold or albino melanoid, again varying by M gene). Otherwise you're looking at two generations to get any albinos from this lot: cross Dickie and Heph to get a few dd offspring, then cross those with one of the golds and you'll get some aa dd. Or as suggested above, you could mate the wildtypes from a gold/leucistic cross which resulted in all wildtypes.

The Heph/Zazu or Ziggy cross would have different results depending on their M genes... Let's assume he's Aa for this experiment. If EVEN ONE of them is MM, you'll get 50% gold and 50% wildtype. This would also obscure the M gene of the other one, meaning that if one is MM the other could be MM, Mm, or mm and the offspring would have the same color ratio. If they're both Mm, you'd get 37% wildtype, 37% gold, 12% dark melanoid, and 12% albino melanoid. If the female is Mm and Heph is mm, you'll get an even split between wildtype, gold, dark melanoid, and albino melanoid.

I don't recommend a Heph/Charles cross because it would result in AaM-Dd or aaM-Dd. You would not get any albinos. I base this on Charles' history of throwing all golds when crossed with a gold - she's very, very likely to be homozygous for everything.

Whew!! Lots of genetics! I hope this helps. Let me know if I can clear anything up!

Thank you for your effort! I've never come across a melanoid in NZ, I think they are either very rare or non-existent. Nobody in the axolotl community seems to have seen one here. So I always just assume they are not MM or Mm.
I only have one question, I think I understand the rest.

I already have a few babies from Dickie, I am just unsure whether Haku or Heph is the father, because until recently, they were always together. But the babies are wild and leucy, can I use any of them? Or does it definitely need to be from Heph, seeing as Haku isn't suitable?

Thanks again for doing all that, it helps my understanding a lot and I can match them up a bit better. Unfortunately the only two who keep breeding are Haku and Zazu, which we've figured out isn't particularly helpful (all wilds).

Can I just ask, if you can be bothered answering, if I had to split them up, in a set of three, three and two, who would you put together?
I currently have Charles, Ziggy and Dickie, to see what Charles and Dickie make, Ziggy is only there because I'd at least get gold babies out of a match up. I have Haku and Zazu together, all wilds, but I don't want Zazu to breed again, that's why she's with Haku.
Then I have Heph, Bobby-Corwen and Charles. Seeing as you think Charles is homozygous, she can go anywhere, I had wanted to see if she was DD but you've confirmed that for me.

 

[Vyaavi]

I didn't know that about melanoids in NZ! I guess you get the coppers and we get the mels. As for Dickie's current babies... They could potentially be useful. If they're Haku's babies, they won't be carrying the recessive albino gene, but the leucistics will give you the recessive white/leucistic d gene you'd also need for non-gold albinos. Cross them with golds for two generations and you'll get a couple albinos if you're lucky!

I'm actually WAY more excited about the wildtypes from Haku/Zazu! Those babies are ALL AaMMDd. You can inbreed them for albinos in the very next generation, or cross out to Heph and hope he's Aa.

If I were to match them up... Jeez, that's a tough one. I'd have Haku, Hephaestion, and Dickie in separate tanks. I'd put B-C with Haku - there's potential for leucistic offspring there. Dickie will only throw wildtypes and leucistics, and the leucistics will only happen if she's mated to a leucistic, so she can go in with either Haku or Hephaestion. Everyone else effectively has the same genotype, so it doesn't matter which tanks they go in. All the gold/leucistic crosses will throw purely wildtype, but all those wildtypes will be recessive for albino and leucism. Gold/gold will throw all golds.

Whoops, just saw that you don't want Zazu to breed again. Let me think about that for a minute...

 

[Vyaavi]

Okay! I would put B-C, Haku, and Heph in one tank. If Haku ends up the daddy, you can find out if B-C is Dd or DD. If Heph is the dad, you'll find out if he's AA or Aa and potentially get albinos if you're really lucky!

In tank 2, I'd put Zazu and either Charles or Ziggy. That'll prevent Zazu from breeding and also keep as much diversity in the breeding tanks as possible.

Tank 3 would then be Dickie, Eugene, and either Charles or Ziggy. That would mean Dickie would throw all wildtypes, but they would all be Aa and a mix of DD and Dd. Charles (or Ziggy!) would throw all golds.

WAIT HANG ON. I think I might be confused on someone's sex. You said you have Charles and Dickie together to get offspring but listed both as female? It doesn't really change my recommendations (that pair would produce all wildtype, btw), I'm just confused.

 

[Spartacus]

OH! Oops haha Eugene, not Charles. Eugene, Dickie and Ziggy are together >.< I always call him Charles instead, seeing as it is a boys name too. Charles is the girl gold. I should really start calling her Charlie, or something slighly more feminine.

I will breed Zazu again at some point, but she needs a lil while to rest (though it seems they won't probably breed for awhile)

I'm moving house soon, so when I get the tanks all set up again, I'll try your suggestion
I will also work harder to raise some of those wildtypes, just been trying to get rid of them, and forgetting that I need some! I have babies and eggs though, so I'm safe there.

I'm not even sure if NZ has true coppers either. I know a lady with one that looks sorta copper, but it doesn't have red eyes. I would love a copper so badly they are gorgeous.

Thank you again so much (all of you) for your input, it's very valuable to me! Could save me years of mixing and matching them, and I understand it all better now!