European union laws

[catfish dude]

Hello,

during my researches of species I wanted I've found a breeder of Salamandra salamandra in Germany. I know that all caudatas native to Poland are under strict protection by polish laws so I've started to making call phones. I've been talking with many officials, veterinaries and today after about two weeks of searching I have received a phone number to something which would be a general environment protection office and have had a looong talk with a lady there.

So my question was what kind of permissions I need to keep a species that is native to Poland and is under a strict species protection in my country but comes not from natural environment but from a breeder so it was born in captivity.

Well I have to do a LOT, and I mean it a LOT, of paperwork here in Poland. I will have to have documents from a breeder confirmed by a proper official in Germany that this animals are captive bred. And then I will have to wait about a half of a year till a ministry of environment here in Poland will personally sign a single permission especially for me or not. What is very strange I cannot breed this animals as well. If I want to breed them I need another permission for babies BEFORE they breed. So I've asked how could I know how many permissions I will need because Salamandra never gives a birth to a certain amount of larvaes and a lady answered - do not breed them then.
So Poland is a very beautiful country but I totally do not trust officials here. In fact this lady was thinking that Salamandra is a lizard. But laws are laws and I probably will give up on keeping Salamandra salamandra then but I would like to know how exactly laws work in Germany, Netherlands, Spain, France or other EU countries where keeping Salamandra only needs a paper from a breeder. Or maybe they are illegal to keep in other countries as well?

Thanks.

 

[Azhael]

Here you just need a document that states the origin of the animals, species, amount, contact data of the breeder, etc. There isn´t an official document or anything since most caudates are not CITES.
However, the hability to keep native species in cautivity, even with the adequate papers varies between autonomic communities. In Catalunya for example, all native species are illegal without regard to their origin.

 

[catfish dude]

Hello,

well I have another few phone calls today and in european union there is a document which in opinion of polish officials make keeping any native to territory of EU Salamandra species illegal on territory of EU. I've read it whole (not easy) and I've came to conclusion that in fact it do not prohibit keeping all caudates but it can be a simply misunderstanding either by me (who thinks that it is legal) or by officials I've talkied with (who think it is illegal).

So this document is called environment directive and has a number like this:
92/43/EWG and if I'm right it is the same law in all european countries.

So officials in Poland thinks that if there is a family name (Salamandridae) in this directive then all species in this family are under protection of this directive which simply makes all european caudates prohibited to keep (for a normal hobbyst) or you really have to get all this permissions (in fact there is more paper work to do than if I would like to keep a Siberian Tiger at home ). But at the begining of this directive there is a sentence which makes me thinks other way:

"Abbreviation "ssp." after the name of family or genus means that all species included in this family or genus are protected by this directive."
And in the Salamandridae family this abbreviation ssp do not exist. Of course official which with I've talkied told me that if name of family exist there it is enought to protect whole family but again I've gave her an example of family one of the insects family so he could see that in fact in every case when on listing family change, it is always present before all species from this family protected by this directive are present (and in fact not whole family is protected). She said that I'm probably right but interpetetions of laws are not her job so I have to wait till Monday and then after talk with correct persons she will give me an answer .

Anyways I'm not giving up yet. But if there is a polish keeper of Salamandra salamandra here reading this and he keeps pets legally please contact me via PM so we could talk about laws he/she used.

And to members of other countries could you give me a whole sentence from your country laws which makes keeping Salamandra possible in your country?

Thanks!

 

[catfish dude]

Hello,

well lady has called me just now that she was able to get an answer sooner. So it is as I suspected. There is no problem in keeping Salamandridae as long as they are not species or subspecies of animals which are native to Poland. So according to current systematics we have in Poland Salamandra salamandra Linnaeus, 1758. And I cannot keep it and any other subspecies of it.

So species/subspecies I cannot keep:
Salamandra salamandra salamandra
Salamandra salamandra alfredschmidti
Salamandra salamandra almanzoris
Salamandra salamandra bejarae
Salamandra salamandra berbardezi
Salamandra salamandra beschkovi
Salamandra salamandra crespoi
Salamandra salamandra fastuosa
Salamandra salamandra gallaica
Salamandra salamandra giglioli
Salamandra salamandra hispanica
Salamandra salamandra longirostris
Salamandra salamandra morenica
Salamandra salamandra terrestris
Salamandra salamandra werneri

Species that I can keep:
Salamandra algira algira
Salamandra algira tingitana
Salamandra corsica
Salamandra infraimmaculata infraimmaculata
Salamandra infraimmaculata orientalis
Salamandra infraimmaculata semenovi
Salamandra lanzai
Salamandra atra atra
Salamandra atra aurorae
Salamandra atra pasubiensis


I also cannot keep Triturus cristatus, Lissotriton vulgaris and Triturus alpestris and Lissotriton montandoni . Good news!