Ethics and Wild Collection

J

john

Guest
I know this may be somewhat of a hot button topic but hot button topics don't go away unless we talk about them... For those of us who keep North American salamander species, the options for obtaining captive bred specimens are practically nil. When I decided that I wanted to start keeping sals again, I investigated as much as i could about obtaining CB species native to North America and found that I was pretty much out of luck. So, instead of purchasing WC stock from someone I don't know who may not be as careful in the wild as I try to be, I opted to do what I did as a kid, go out in the woods and find some for myself.

Of course, abiding by all local and federal laws is paramount. But I have also decided to adopt the stance that I will only collect adults or transformed juvies. I violated this once by accidentally collecting a larval E. Bislineata that had practically no gills remaining.

I've recently begun to question my rules. Is it not more potentially damaging to the population to take sexually mature adults? Should I, in fact, collect eggs and/or larvae? My local laws are much more lenient in the collection of larvae or eggs but sometimes do not make much sense in terms of conservation. What are some of your thoughts on this matter?
 
I would think that taking a few larvae would have a much less impact than taking a few sexually mature adults. I imagine that the chances of a mature adult making it to the next years breeding would be higher than that of a larval specimen that is years away from breeding.
I imagine though, that if laws weren't put into place to protect eggs and larvae, that almost all eggs could be collected due to their defenselessness and relatively easy access. If that were to continue for years it could really devastate the population, and perhaps cause extinction if allowed to continue.
 
IMHO for all below...
I think that taking larvae would definetly be better than taking of adults. Your viewpoint seems pretty good about that collecting them yourself part as when people collect them to be sold they tend to take many more than they need. Taking a few larvae would be like adding an extra dragonfly larvae into the pool or wherever. Anything on a wholesale scale like how Jeff described with the eggs would definetly be bad also.
 
It's statistical as to whether taking larvae has less of an impact, but I do prefer to take hatchlings or juveniles myself. When collecting adults you end up with animals of an unknown age. It may be a young adult, or an old individual in its last season. If you invest a lot of time and money into collecting your own small colony (which I have/do), at least this way you have the potential to work with something over time and not get discouraged by sudden unexplained deaths.
 
I don't know much about this at all and I have no personal experience breeding newts. I only own a single c.orientalis and I have only had her for a few months. But you are obviously genuinely concerned about your actions and their impact on the environment so would this be a reasonable solution?

If you have enough experience in keeping these species and you take mature adults could you not breed them yourself, and return the eggs to where you found the adults? Like I said, I know nothing, and will stand corrected if someone with more experience tells me I'm talking rubbish!
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But surely this option will have the least impact as you would not really be removing them from the gene pool?? Just a thought.
 
Dawn, I think introducing captive bred, though native, species to the wild could potentially also introduce pathogens back into the wild that could harm wild populations. That is just a guess, though. On the other hand, that is what wildlife officials do with severely endangered wildlife, like the California condor and the black footed ferret. Maybe because those wild populations are already so small the chance of infecting them is not likely, or worth the risk? Well, now I am just thinking aloud. Maybe someone with more "herping" experience could shed light on the subject.
Heather
 
Yes, reintroducing eggs (or any other life stage) from captivity back to the wild is a bad idea from the standpoint of pathogens. One expects that wildlife officials are monitoring for the presence of pathogens before they release animals, or keeping the captive animals in a way that they won't get infected.

I agree that taking a modest number of eggs, larvae or juveniles has much less impact on a population than taking adults.
 
The age structure of most amphibian populations is a pyramid, fat at the bottom (eggs) and thin at the top (adults), mostly due to predation. So, in most cases, taking eggs is the best option *if* you must have wc animals - as long as you have the experience to rear them successfully of course.
 
One of the major points that I see being missed here is the condition of the population (throughout the range as well as local) as well as if there is imprinting on localities in determining what stage should be collected to establish a captive population.
With respect to the populations, if you have a species on the fringe of its range, then that population probably should not have any individuals removed from its population, if you have a species that is wide ranging and is very widely distributed (think P. cinereus) and you are collecting from a section of the range that is densely populated (I can collect them from my back yard), then the impact of collecting adults is mitigated by the density of the population. With respect to imprinting, it is probably always better to collect ambystomids as eggs or larva (with respect to whether or not that population is fringe or not).

Ed
 
Dawn,
It is against the law in a number of states and I believe as well as federally to release animals that have been bred in captivity without permits and oversight.
Release by hobbyists or escape of animals from hobbyist collections has been implicated in mycoplasma infections in the genus Gopherus killing thousands of the tortoises and has now been documented in box turtles (Terrapene). There is also strong evidence that chytrid was transported around the globe by Xenopus..

Ed
 
Yes, it is most definitely against the law here in MD to release captive bred specimens or even rerelease wild caught specimens that have been in captivity more than 30 days or that have been housed with ANY other specimens. IMO, that is still not enough since I've read that chytrid can even be transmitted by collection equipment that has not been properly sterilized and thus spread to isolated populations. So, in my mind, that makes it still more preferable to collect eggs.
 
John,
If you think that the collection of eggs will reduce the risks of pathogens then this is true with some pathogens but not with others. Chytrid for example can be spread via mud or other organic debris but is also spread by movement within water. So collection of eggs for example does not reduce the risk of chytrid....

Ed
 
Getting back to the first topic...

Why don't people in the US breed their native animals? In Europe people breed: Ambystoma maculatum, Ambystoma mavortium, Ambystoma opacum, Taricha granulosa, Notophthalmus viridescens, Eurycea lucifuga etc etc...don't tell me you can't do that in the US???
 
Serge

I dare say people could and I'm sure some do, but I had no success in finding any of them who were making their stock available for purchase. I quickly realized that the community ran more on trade of species than money and with no species in my collection i had nothing to offer. The impression i get is that many people in North America are more interested in breeding European and Asian species anyway. It's my hope that I can actually have some success breeding some of these to make them available to others. Not sure i hold out much hope in this endeavour but i'll try.

And that information was actually background for the main topic, which was ethics in wild collection. Even if several of us are successful in breeding these species, we will still from time to time need wild caught specimens to increase the gene pool and maintain healthy stock.
 
I can think of two reasons, Sergé. First, in the US we are just starting to get enough people interested in caudates to begin serious breeding efforts. I think in Europe you have a big head-start! Second, fewer of our native salamanders are protected by law from collection, so the "awareness" that we need to breed them is only beginning.

It is embarrassing... American species are more commonly bred in Europe than here
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Then I have another ethics question. I live in Utah and the only native caudate is the tiger salamander so I dont have much of a chance to collect. I am interested in other American species, like the eastern newt, and I do occasionaly see them in pet shops. I would much rather purchase from one of you hobbyists than buy from a shop that doesnt always take the best care of their animals. So would it be best to wait, for who knows how long, until someone from this forum is offering some of the American species I am interested in, or buy a few from a shop and try to breed them, and thus help the captive breeding program myself? This is something I have thought about for a while, and would really like the input from you members on what the best thing to do would be.
 
Heather, IMO it's best to wait. Even if you did purchase them from some shop, sometimes they're in such horrible condition that they die before getting a chance to breed. It's better to purchase healthy stock. This also reduces the demand for mass-collected newts to be sold in shop.
 
Lets make it a simple question: Who successfully bred notophthalmus viridescens this season?
 
I think one of the reason's US caudates aren't bred as often is because it is harder to find sources. While this certainly doesn't explain the tiger salamander. If you don't live in the natural range of the animal you won't be able to keep them(unless they are mass collected for the pet trade). Even if you do, the laws may be restrictive.

I suppose someone in an area where they are abundant could collect a small number of eggs/larvae or whatever to send to people truly interested in trying to breed them but this is almost like collecting for the pet trade and I'm betting would be against the law in lots of places...
 
People haven't really been able to breed tiger salamanders in normal captive settings, except for maybe Tim's friend in Japan. I'm pretty sure it's been done in outdoor enclosures though.
 
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