Doubts about T.dobrogicus

[rodrigo]

Hi, well i´ve been thinking lately about two particular facts i see in my dobros. The first one is that only one of them has a yellow stripe down the spine...the other two only have some shade. Also the one with the stripe has a different cloaca. Could it be sexual dimorphism?? I think it´s way too early..they are only about 8 cm long.
The other thing. All of them have a bright yellow belly... All the pics of adults i´ve seen, and all the descriptions of the species, talk about red or orange bellies. Never encountered a description that mentioned yellow bellies.
My two ideas about this...1) Lack of pygmentation in the food 2) some kind of variety of a special location.
Any ideas about these two facts?

Here are a couple of pics for you to see that i´m not lying hehe

 

[ian]

Rodrigo, not sure about the yellow stripe ,as far as i'm aware Dobrogicus juves don't have it, at least mine don't but mine do have the yellow belly. The ones i have also seem a lot longer and very slender.
My carnifex juves look very similar to yours but hey i've just got started on crested newts so don't take my word for it..

 

[rodrigo]

I must admit i have my doubts about them being dobrogicus too.
I expected them to be longer. But i think they do look like dobrogicus though...the carnifex i´ve seen had longer tails compared to the body(think so)...these one´s tail are shorter than the body. Also i´ve fed them pretty well these days so it may explain the "slenderness".
I know nothing about cresteds so i could be completely wrong, but i think they look like dobrogicus. They look alike carnifex too though...
The pics don´t really show their actual colours. The back is brown, and they have blue spots in the flanks (which would make them more likely to be carnifex, or even cristatus).
I would really like to see a pic of your juveniles, both dobrogicus and carnifex, if possible, please Ian.I would really like to compare.
Anyway they were sold to me as dobrogicus and i really hope i wasn´t scammed.
btw, there´s only one with the stripe, does the stripeless one in the pic look more like your dobros? The carnifex juvies i´ve seen in pics all of them had the yellow stripe...
Man the more i think about it the more i suspect them not to be dobrogicus....:S Actually i´m inclined to think they are cristatus or carnifex...
If someone with experience with cresteds could help me identify them ...it would be great.

(Message edited by azhael on April 24, 2007)

 

[william]

carnifex have the yellow stripe, these are certainly them.

 

[rodrigo]

I really have my doubts...
Carnifex aren´t that long i think, and have bigger extremities.
My newts have short limbs.
Also as i said...there´s only one with the yellow stripe...the other two have a brown/reddish stripe.
I don´t see it clear...some characteristics say carnifex and other point to dobrogicus.
Also it crossed my mind that maybe i have both species Ô_o

These two posts are the key for my doubts.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/985/26129.html?1100196200
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/985/26150.html?1100623372

(Message edited by azhael on April 24, 2007)

 

[coen]

I have seen some juvenile T. carnifex and they looked pretty much exactly like the photo you showed Rodrigo, just my 2 cents

 

[juraj]

Well, doubts. Separating former cristatus complex into more and more species subspecies etc. leads to more doubts. Science is about doubts.
Can anybody identify what`s on pics please ?

 

[rodrigo]

hahaha agreed Juraj, first thing my father taught me about science is that it´s all based on suppositions.
But considering that someone decided to separate them....do you think those could be more likely classified as dobrogicus?
I think there are obvious differences between a carnifex and a dobrogicus. It´s all a matter of opinion if they are enough to be considered different taxa, but the differences are there. So, in your experience, have you ever encountered dobrogicus juveniles that looked like that?
I think you´ve made it clear that you don´t really like this topics, but i´m begging you to share your knowledge, please

(Message edited by azhael on April 25, 2007)

 

[ian]

Rodrigo...i've e-mailed you some photo's of a dobrogicus juve next to a cristatus juve the difference is there for you to see. My carnifex were very similar to the cristatus but had a bright yellow stripe like the one in your photo...

 

[rodrigo]

Thank you very much Ian.
I´ve measured the distance between the nose and the start of the front legs in the cristatus, the dobrogicus, and my newts, and the distance between the start of the front legs and the start of the back legs too.
The relation for the cristatus between the two distances is 2 more or less. For dobrogicus it was 2,5 more or less, and my stripeless newts gave 2,5 too. But by a single sight, they look a lot shorter than the dobrogicus in your pic Ian.
But mathematics are mathematics, and though i measured a pic and that´s not very reliable i measured all the sizes several times...
So i guess at least the stripeless two are dobrogicus, just fat ones hehe. Thank you very much again Ian. I think i can be nearly sure now. There´s the striped one left though Ô_o

 

[Azhael]

Just thought i would post a pic of the dobros. As you can see the yellow stripe one of them had has completely faded, and now it looks exactly the same as the other two. Talking with the breeder and Rubén (Thank you man), i was informed that they may be from some population from Viena that appears to be contaminated with carnifex which would explain everything. Anyway....i don´t care, i love them! they eat fantastically well and they are looking really nice. The only problem....they bite each other when they smell food...¬¬

 

[coendeurloo]

Yes T. dobrogicus are very aggressive eaters, my advice would be to give food more often, but in less quantities. This seems to temper their aggressiveness.

 

[rigsby]

just a thought Rodrigo...have you tried giving them something bigger than blood worm, i have some that size which i keep terrestrial that can manage wax worm they can swallow rather large food fot thier size..

 

[Azhael]

Now bloodworms and crickets are the only foods i have for them, but some time ago i managed to find some worms under the desertic floor of this damn city, and they ate them like monsters. But i actually think the fact that the worms moved made them even more agressive hehe. They´ll just follow anything that moves. I fear one of this days they´ll harm each other...but have no room to separate them. For now my strategy is keeping them very well fed...they seem to calm down for a day after a huge meal.