Cynops cross-breeding

[TJ]

I was surprised to learn the other day from Japanese herpetologists that not only can Cynops ensicauda subspecies crossbreed (interbreed?) with each other, but C. ensicauda and C. pyrrhogaster can as well -- though it's not clear whether F1 hybrids can produce the subsequent generation. I was also told that C. pyrrhogaster and C. orientalis can crossbreed.

I guess this shouldn't be all that surprising, considering I've heard of Triturus crossbreeding, but it is, as I've come across any mention of this at all. And it's important to me as I've been keeping C. ensicauda. together with C. pyrrhogaster in two of my larger tanks for a long time, with lots of breeding taking place in both.

Does anybody have any experience with this?

(Message edited by TJ on October 14, 2005)

 

[paul]

Hi Tim,

I don't have experience, but my information is, that crossbreeding between C.o., C.e. and C.p. is not possible.
Would be very interesting to know some Japanese literature to this.

Paul

 

[jennifer]

Tim, I would be VERY surprised if all of this is true. Subspecies, such as popei and nominate ensicauda will, in most cases, crossbreed. So I'll believe that one. I'm skeptical about ensicauda and pyrrhogaster. And I do not believe for a moment that orientalis and pyrrho could crossbreed. Heck, orientalis and pyrrhogaster are even likely to be reassigned into two different genera. It would be unheard-of for animals of a different genus to crossbreed.

 

[TJ]

Well then you're as surprised as I was

But considering the source(s) of this info, I would think there has to be some basis for it. Hmmm...hang on there until I dig out the info if it's indeed out there. I heard that researchers at Hiroshima University had succeeded in crossbreeding C. ensicauda and C. pyrrhogaster so there should be some document around. I'll take that on faith until I learn otherwise, but C. pyrrhogaster crossbreeding with C. orientails also sounds to me pretty unbelievable!

(Message edited by TJ on October 14, 2005)

 

[wouter]

Hi all,
Kawamura, T. & S. Sawada (1959): On the sexual isolation among different species and local races of Japanese newts. - J. Sc. Hiroshima Univ., ser. B, div. 1 (Zool.) 18: 17-30 gives some information about this, the authors tried to breed ensicauda with sasayama and pyrrhogaster from Kagoshima. No succes though.

 

[ralf]

Wouter, thanks for the info.

Ralf

 

[TJ]

Wouter, yes, that's interesting. I guess the crossbreeding success claim should just be considered hearsay then until any information emerges to substantiate it

I have heard, however, that the genetic distances between C. ensicauda and some races of C. pyrrhogaster are actually shorter than that between the C. p. sasayamae and other races of C. pyrrhogaster.

I can't vouch for this either, but for the charts on genetic distances and similarities, check out:

Hayashi, T.and M. Matsui. 1988. Biochemical differentiation in Japanese newts, genus Cynops (Salamandridae). Zool. Sci., Tokyo. 5:1121-1136.

(Message edited by TJ on October 14, 2005)

 

[brian]

It might not be so strange. Anurans from different continents that have been seperated for over 65 million years can in some cases breed and produce fertile offspring such as some Bufo sp.

 

[paul]

It is a very interesting discussion!
All what I read until now is, that this crossbreeding is not possible.

But this was the same in some Asiatic turtles. Today we know, that there are even some crossbreeding possible between species of different genera.

But in case of Cynops orientalis – C. pyrrhogaster – C.ensicauda, I think it is not possible until someone proves the opposite.

Paul

 

[TJ]

Ok, here's a relevant quote from Kawamura, T. & S. Sawada (1959): On the sexual isolation among different species and local races of Japanese newts:

"Although T. pyrrhogaster and T. ensicauda are geographically isolated from each other, they are very similar to each other in breeding season, breeding site and sexual behavior. Isolating mechanisms, such as gametic isolation, hybrid inviability and hybrid sterility, have not been found between them."

"There seems to be no hybrid inviability in crosses between different local races of pyrrhogaster as well as in those between pyrrhogaster and ensicauda..."

The document goes on to say that ensicauda females attract not only ensicauda males but also Sasayama pyrrhogaster males. "Sasayama pyrrhogaster males have a little more preference for ensicauda females than for their own females." Ensicauda males, however, showed a dislike for Sasayama pyrrhogaster females.

As to what Wouter said, well, I haven't found that in the report yet, but it does appear to suggest that ensicauda can mate and have viable offspring with pyrrhogaster, and it seems to indicate that the best way to go about it would be to team up a Sasayama pyrrhogaster male with an ensicauda female.

By the way, if anybody can supply me with the two pages that I'm missing -- 21 and 22 --I would be much obliged!! timtim@gol.com

(Message edited by TJ on October 14, 2005)

 

[joseph]

Guess that means its important to keep your subs and species seperate in captivity. In aquariums South American and African cichlids have been known to spawn...and New World cichlid hybrids are quite common(including the designer fish flowerhorn...)

 

[jennifer]

Very interesting, Tim. I wouldn't have guessed this was possible. I wonder what the cross-bred offspring would look like, although I would NOT be willing to do the experiment.