conserved Cynops wolterstorffi and "shataukokensis"

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paul_b

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Paul Bachhausen
Hi all,

last weekend I made some photos of conserved Cynops wolterstorffi and "shataukokensis":

The wolterstorffi looked like a very large C. cyanurus of my Qian Main group:
5901010059-c_w-seite-med.jpg


5901010064-c_w-dorsal-med.jpg


The "shataukokensis" like C. pyrrhogaster:
male:
5901010069-c-s-male-med.jpg

males, females, juvenil:
5901010067-c_s-dorsal-med.jpg

belly:
5901010071-c_s-belly-med.jpg


Paul
 
Thank you very much for sharing, Paul. Wish I could have seen them myself. Makes me wonder if Cynops (Hypselotriton) wolterstorffi is indeed a separate species or an ecotype of this particular form of Cynops cyanurus. An adaptation to a rather large lake as habitat. Were these specimen preserved in alcohol or formaldehyde?
 
Addendum: The light dorsal stripe on the juvenile/subadult shataukokensis looks also very "pyrrhogaster" to me.
 
@Ralf
Ralf said:
... Were these specimen preserved in alcohol or formaldehyde?
Click to expand...
They were in alcohol.
But I think in 1912 all newts were preserved in formaldehyde!
So I maybe the solvent was changed - problem for genetical analysis!

Paul
 
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but was shataukokensis not named on petshop specimens of C. pyrrhogaster alleged to have come from Hong Kong, but which turned out to have been collected in Japan? That, I think, is why they look like pyrrhogaster!

Chris
 
@ Chris,
Cynops "shataukokensis" was imported from Klaus Haker in 1975, and should come from "Sha Tau Kok". So it was described as a new species bei Freytag & Eberhardt.
Later by:
Risch, J.-P. & J. D. Romer (1980): Origin and Taxonomic Status of the Salamander Cynops shataukokensis - Journal of Herpetology 14 (4): 337-342
was described, that there are no Cynops in Hong Kong and that the species did not exist, but is C. pyrrhogaster from Japan.
Only - "Sha Tau Kok" is not in Hong Kong!
I talked with Haker about this and saw all his documents about the import. Also some scientists say "maybe Haker is right".

So I wanted to see this Cynops "shataukokensis" and now I think, Risch & Romer are right.
This newts did not look near to any Chinese Cynops, but seem to be pyrrhogaster.

Paul
 
Hi Paul,

I think you are right,
I have Cynops Pyrrhogaster from Haker F2, these are captive bred ones from a very well known dutch cynops breeder.
these are very similar to the picture above of the shataukokensis
will post some pics of my Haker pyrrhogaster in my own space on this forum.

Regards Reinder
 
Very interesting. I had never heard about the conflicting stories regarding shataukokensis. They certainly look completely like pyrrhogaster to me!

Is anyone working on genetic analysis? This would be the only way to resolve the mystery. Keep us posted.
 
@Jennet!
Jennewt said:
...Is anyone working on genetic analysis? This would be the only way to resolve the mystery....
Click to expand...
I talked with David Wake about genetic analysis. It seems to be a problem because of the preservation solvent.

@Reinder!
reinderhaar said:
...will post some pics of my Haker pyrrhogaster in my own space on this forum....
Click to expand...
Where can I find it?

@Ralf!
Ralf said:
...Makes me wonder if Cynops (Hypselotriton) wolterstorffi is indeed a separate species or an ecotype of this particular form of Cynops cyanurus. An adaptation to a rather large lake as habitat....
Click to expand...
I had the same idea!
Comparing with cyanurus it was really large!

Paul
 
the photo links now seem to be gone !? any chance of getting them back? (i linked here from the species database)
 
The disappearance of the photos is bizarre. I'll ask John.
 
 
No working photos. This is why I don't like external photos. I came to the thread to see what these species look like and the photos don't work. Useless.
 
We have a photo gallery to store images. We don't delete them, we don't move them, they are there for eternity unless the owner wishes them removed. Great way to avoid annoying missing photos.
 
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