Question: Collecting Wild Newts

[RoFlores]

I would like to know if it's legal and "ok" to collect wild Eastern newts (Notophthalmus viridescens) in Tennessee. Near my home in the foothills of the smokies there are several cow ponds with a healthy population of newts but once I asked a state officer about catching them and she assured me that if I ever as much as looked at one for long enough, I would go to jail and rot there for ever. So I asked some other officer and he told me that the only reason to collect newts was for fishing bait !!! I don't use live newts as bait, I said, so he stared at me like I grew a third eye... So I really don't know if it's ok or not. I know they are not in the cites list. Thanks for any info.

Ro

 

[DeCypher]

I collected my 3 Eastern Newts (Notophthalmus Viridescens) from the wild. They are very healthy and very happy. I've had them for almost a year now. I do not recommend collecting from the wild...I am happy about what I did, because I know I am taking proper care of my newts and keeping them happy and healthy. However, I don't recommend taking newts from the wild because taking even one newt may change the population significantly. Also, if this park is owned by the city, taking animals from a place like this can result in fines. They will certainly not lock you up for taking the newts. Taking amphibians from the wild is frowned upon, because of their shrinking population.

 

[Kaysie]

From personal experience, I will state that Tennessee has some of the most ridiculously stringent herp laws I've ever seen. When I lived in Alabama, I went to a couple of herp shows in Tennessee, and the restrictions of what you couldn't sell at shows was at least 5 times longer than what you COULD sell.

Here I found the following excerpt:

My child wants to make a pet of a box turtle (or any wild animal) we found in the woods. How do I care for it?
In Tennessee, no one is allowed to keep any animal as a pet taken from the wild, which to many people's surprise includes tadpoles, frogs, lizards, snakes, turtles, baby birds, squirrels, raccoons, and young deer.

The Tennessee Fishing Regulation .pdf (huge file, btw) states on page 15 (of the doc, actual page 17) that Dusky salamanders, Desmognathus fuscus and conanti may be harvested without limit by licensed sport anglers for use as bait.

So no, you cannot collect Notos as pets. With a fishing license, you may collect duskies as 'bait'.

 

[Kaysie]

However, I don't recommend taking newts from the wild because taking even one newt may change the population significantly.

I totally disagree. Responsible individuals who remove a responsible number of eggs or larvae from a healthy breeding population will make little dent in general numbers. A female may lay 200 eggs a season, but chances are only a very few of these will make it to adulthood. The rest will fall to predation or starvation due to increased competition for food. However, removing large numbers of breeding adults from a small area can damage populations. I do NOT advocate removing adults from a population, but removing a few number of eggs or larvae from a healthy population won't do much damage.

Also, if this park is owned by the city, taking animals from a place like this can result in fines. They will certainly not lock you up for taking the newts.

They can, and have done before. (Unfortunately not enough) Poachers have been sentenced to jail fines for illegal removal of animals.

 

[RoFlores]

Yeah, I was afraid of that. The ponds are not in any park but I won't risk it. In Tennessee it's illegal to pick up a box turtle from the middle of the road to save it's life... Oh well, I guess there are enough captive bred foreign species available to mess with the local ones, the shame is that I actually like them.

 

[Kaysie]

I'm not sure what park ownership has to do with anything, as laws are laws, no matter who owns the property. In fact, there are much bigger consequences for poaching on Federal land. I'm not sure where s/he came up with that.

Sorry I was the bearer of bad news. But I'm glad you're respectful of the laws. And you're right! There are a lot of super-cool captive bred species available. Do you have any in particular in mind?

 

[DeCypher]

I was talking more about taking adult Notos, not eggs or larvae. A responsible person taking a responsible number of eggs is fine, as Kaysie had said.

And by the way, I never knew Tennesee was so strict on taking animals from the wild...is there a reason why they are so strict?

 

[Kaysie]

Even taking a small number of adults from a stable population will have little impact on the population.

Some states are more strict than others. Tennessee is one of the most diverse states in the US when it comes to herps. I suspect their laws come from wanting to keep it that way.

 

[DeCypher]

So the laws are a good thing and do protect the population... I always thought laws like this did nothing and just made people angry. I don't really understand laws like that, being from Ohio and all.

I have read many articles that say taking newts from the wild has little impact on the population, I have read many articles that say it has a huge impact on the population. Which one to believe? So confusing!! :errr:

 

[RoFlores]

Well, actually I have my eyes set on keiser's spotted newt or/and Neurergus strauchii or one of the sirenids. I have had dendrobates and mantellas in the past and once had an axolotl, but never have had a newt or a true salamander. The laws in Tennessee are a bit weird, you can not own a pet turtle even if it's non native, but you can own one that you intend to eat. Nor can you own a pet skunk.

 

[Kaysie]

With some experience with amphibs, you should be able to sustain Neurergus fairly well. I've never tried myself, but they don't seem especially delicate.

Sirens are way cool. I had a pair of greaters for a while, and I got a big kick out of them. They do take a lot of space, but they're generally just awesome.

 

[Kaysie]

So the laws are a good thing and do protect the population... I always thought laws like this did nothing and just made people angry. I don't really understand laws like that, being from Ohio and all.

Ohio has laws too. In a nutshell, you can only keep 4 of each native species (except those which are protected), and you must apply for a propagating license within 10 days of collection to keep said legally.

Ohio regulation states: With a propagating license, except for state endangered species, an Ohio resident may possess:

• four total individuals of each wild-captured native reptile or amphibian from the list below entitled “Wild-captured Native Reptiles and Amphibians”; and/or
• an unlimited number of animals captively produced or legally obtained from out of state, with proper documentation.

A propagating license application must be requested from the Division of Wildlife within 10 days after taking possession of any native reptile, amphibian or wood turtle (Clemmys insculpta).

A $25 noncommercial propagating license is required for people who permanently possess native reptiles or amphibians but do not intend to sell, offer for sale, trade or barter animals. The license holder may possess an unlimited number of reptiles and/or amphibians of which only four total individuals of each reptile or amphibian have been taken from the wild.

You can read this regulation here.

 

[Azhael]

Regarding wether collection of a small amount of adults has an impact or not it all depends on the state of the population. If a given population contains hundreds of adults, then obviously, removing 5, is hardly going to make any dent at all. If, however, the population contains 30, those same 5 individuals can certainly have an impact.
This is for example the main reason behind europe´s strict laws. Our populations are hugely fragmented and isolated from each other, so even removing a small amount of animals from a particular population has the potential of making a big impact (of course it doesn´t mean that it will always make an impact, but chances are fair). Also, allowing one individual to catch a few wild animals, sets the precedent for others to follow, and the accumulative effect can be very destructive. Our solution is to ban all collection (exceptions are a huge minority).

It´s worth mentioning that the negative effects of reducing the size of a population are varied. Reducing the amount of animals that are able to reproduce in a given season is obviously not in favor of the chances of the population. It may also affect other animals that depend on the annual crop of caudate larvae. The reduction of breeding adults can also affect the hability of the population as a whole to adapt since the reduction in the genetic variability of the population downsizes their hability to adapt to change. An empoverished genetic pool is less able to withstand the challenges of survival.
Laws for the protection of wildlife exist for a VERY good reason, and enforcing them should be something that comes as second nature for us who love these creatures, because they exist for their benefit and nothing else.

 

[caleb]

There was an interesting observation in the 1980s where large numbers of newts were removed from a set of garden ponds during the breeding season- the result was that far more larvae reached metamorphosis- presumably due to reduced predation and competition.

This is for example the main reason behind europe´s strict laws. Our solution is to ban all collection

Well, that's not completely true in the UK (are we still the 'dirty man of Europe'?)- it's legal to collect the commoner species. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe- are the 'new' European countries as strict as the 'old'?

 

[Kaysie]

Caleb, that's a good point. However, by removing a large number of breeding adults, even if you have larger larval recruitment, the breeding population will be diminished in subsequent years if the species takes 2 or more years to mature (which most do). That being said, in some species not all individuals migrate every year. Some species only migrate every other year.

In general, I think it's better to recommend removing eggs and larvae rather than removing adults. Population dynamics can be very complicated.

 

[Azhael]

Ah, that is what i meant by "exceptions", basically, the UK xD
As far as i know from a few conversations with people of countries of a newish addition to the european union, it seems most do share the general rule of "total ban".
That study you mention sounds interesting. Something very much like that can be easily observed in captivity. It raises a problem, though, since in such conditions it´s not the fittest that survive, given that the competition and the total environmental selection is heavily reduced. It could lead to adverse results in the long run. Such effects can be seen on occasion in captive colonies where aberrants survive that "should not" have survived. It´s certainly not good news for the species (mind you, the individual sure benefits from it).

 

[caleb]

in such conditions it´s not the fittest that survive, given that the competition and the total environmental selection is heavily reduced. It could lead to adverse results in the long run. Such effects can be seen on occasion in captive colonies where aberrants survive that "should not" have survived.

Well, that is possible, up to a point- but as wild mortality can be up to 99% before metamorphosis, I'd suggest that it's far less likely to have adverse effects than in captivity, where it's possible to get almost 100% metamorphosis.