Chinese Firebelly Newt Compatibility

[Lancaster]

I'm looking for information on the compatibility of Chinese Firebelly Newts (Cynops orientalis).

In a Paludarium set up:

I want to know if they'd be able to be mixed with guppies (the adults, I'm not concerned about the fry).

Also, would they be able to mixed with African Dwarf Frogs (of the Hymenochirus genus).

Thanks.

 

[evut]

I think these articles will answer your questions:

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Mixing_disasters.shtml

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/fish.shtml

 

[Azhael]

Guppies can be used but are not an ideal tankmate since the newts will enjoy having a winter cool down, that the guppies probably won´t survive. And anyway, guppies need higher temps for an optimal housing. A much much better option are White Cloud Minnows. These are cold tolerant and completely inoffensive to the newts. As long as you have a small number of them and the tank is fully cycled and well planted, they shouldn´t create enough ammonia to be a problem at all.
Bare in mind , though, that newts chemically detect the presence of fish in the water, and may refuse to go aquatic if fish are present. It´s a bit of a trial an error thing....

About the Hymenochirus....definitely NOT!!!!! Housing requirements are completely different, and it would be impossible to provide what each species needs in the same tank. Plus there is a risk of patogen exchange, predation, stress caused by co-habitation...etc etc....definitely a terrible idea.

I would strongly recommend for you to take a good read at the C.orientalis caresheet, so that you can see how these newts requirements are very different to those of the frogs.

Caudata Culture Species Entry - Cynops orientalis - Chinese firebelly

 

[Lancaster]

Thanks for the heads up.

I'm at least a year away from setting up this tank (which will be at least 100 gallons in size, with at least 25 gallons of water), and am in the 'prospective research' stage.

I've found very few reliable pieces of information on the internet about C. Orientalis care, and posted in this forum to learn a little more about them before jumping into newt ownership.

Since temperature is an issue, I think the white clouds are a far better choice.

I'll skip on the Hymenochirus, but are there any other terrestrial vertebrates that mix well with C. Orientalis?

 

[tmarmoratus]

100 gallons? That's a pretty large enclosure for C. orientalis - perhaps you should consider a larger species for a tank that size?

 

[Lancaster]

100 gallons? That's a pretty large enclosure for C. orientalis - perhaps you should consider a larger species for a tank that size?

I plan on constructing the tank that large in order to have a stream running through the entire tank lengthwise, with a 20 gallon or so basin on the far left hand side.

Which actually brings up another question, does C. Orientalis prefer water that is stagnant or gentle flow or more rapid flow? The basin will be almost current-less, but I haven't decided how fast the stream will run (obviously it won't be a raging river, but still).

 

[Azhael]

That does not sound at all like the ideal housing for C.orientalis.
A stream species will make a much much better use of such a set-up.
C.orientalis likes still water, and although they tolerate some mild current, they prefer no current at all. Also, adult C.orientalis, when housed properly almost never or never come out of the water, so there would be a lot of wasted space. You want a fully aquatic for this species..it´s just what they need.

 

[Lancaster]

That does not sound at all like the ideal housing for C.orientalis.
A stream species will make a much much better use of such a set-up.
C.orientalis likes still water, and although they tolerate some mild current, they prefer no current at all. Also, adult C.orientalis, when housed properly almost never or never come out of the water, so there would be a lot of wasted space. You want a fully aquatic for this species..it´s just what they need.

That's too bad then.

Are there any species of newt that can be safely housed with fish in such a set up?

 

[Azhael]

Nope...unless the fish are the already mentioned white cloud minnows. All caudates are sensitive to the waste that fish produce..and are susceptible to being stressed or damaged by them.

Such a big instalation with a stream set-up could be perfect for many species that inhabit streams naturally...from plethodontids to P.labiatus, or Neurergus, Calotriton.....

 

[Lancaster]

Nope...unless the fish are the already mentioned white cloud minnows. All caudates are sensitive to the waste that fish produce..and are susceptible to being stressed or damaged by them.

The White Clouds are in if they are compatible.

Such a big instalation with a stream set-up could be perfect for many species that inhabit streams naturally...from plethodontids to P.labiatus, or Neurergus, Calotriton.....

And the stream-dwellers that you mentioned are White-Cloud safe then? Or are they fish-eaters?

Or is it best to scrap the project?

 

[Azhael]

Pachytriton labiatus will eat the fish, no doubt (or at least try hard). The other shouldn´t be able to catch healthy fish, but perhaps the odd one would disappear misteriously...

As brilliant as your idea sounds, i would personally recommend that you start with something much more simple. I take (sorry if i´m mistaken) that you have no/limited experience with caudates, so it would be a very good idea to start with an easy species, preferably aquatic( they are just easier really...), such as P.waltl, Triturus sp, axolotls....

 

[Lancaster]

Pachytriton labiatus will eat the fish, no doubt (or at least try hard). The other shouldn´t be able to catch healthy fish, but perhaps the odd one would disappear misteriously...

As brilliant as your idea sounds, i would personally recommend that you start with something much more simple. I take (sorry if i´m mistaken) that you have no/limited experience with caudates, so it would be a very good idea to start with an easy species, preferably aquatic( they are just easier really...), such as P.waltl, Triturus sp, axolotls....

You are not mistaken in assuming my experience with Caudates.
I have never kept any amphibian.

I am however an experienced fishkeeper and reptilekeeper.
I definitely don't want to start off small, I have plans for a large tank and thought that it would be neat to do something in between my comfort zones of all terrestrial or all aquatic. If my paludarium idea isn't practical, I'm not going to a smaller sized tank, I'm going full freshwater aquatic.

 

[Azhael]

That´ also a fantastic project!
You could keep a very impressive colony of the species of your choice (no mixing , though xD). Since you have made the right thing and have asked before doing anything, you have time to learn as much as you possibly can and choose the species that suits you better, and be prepared for it.
Man, i wish i could have such a huge tank....the biggest i can handle right now are 60l ones..¬¬ so sad..

 

[tmarmoratus]

A tank as you've described, depending upon the speed of the "stream" would work well for Taricha species, in particular rivularis, though I can't recall at the moment, ever seeing rivularis in the pet trade.

In fact, I did try to build a very similar style tank (55 gallon) for my granulosa, but unfortunately I could not get the water to stop leaking into the land area, no matter how much darn sealant I added. I know the pictures are on this website somewhere. I'll add the link if I find them.

 

[Nathan]

There are other appropriate fish choices beyond white cloud mountain minnows. Are you interested in a biotope?

If you choose one of the Asian stream newts, you might consider keeping some of the Asian hillstream loaches with them. Their needs are similar, the loaches are inoffensive and keep algae down, and are not spiny (so you won't have newts dying if they decide to eat loaches).

Stream-dwelling plethodontids may be kept with various darters and dace.

 

[Lancaster]

There are other appropriate fish choices beyond white cloud mountain minnows. Are you interested in a biotope?

Definitely not interested in a biotope, I have tried them, but I find them too restrictive. I'd prefer to just mix compatible species with proper conditions.

If you choose one of the Asian stream newts, you might consider keeping some of the Asian hillstream loaches with them. Their needs are similar, the loaches are inoffensive and keep algae down, and are not spiny (so you won't have newts dying if they decide to eat loaches).

I've kept hillstream loaches before, in particular a couple of species of 'Borneo Sucker,' that I was never able to identify the true species name of. They are neat little fish, and if there are newts that won't eat them, and have the same temperature requirements, that'd be great. My knowledge of newt-keeping though is anything but exhaustive, so I would greatly
appreciate it if you could pass on your knowledge of such animals.

Stream-dwelling plethodontids may be kept with various darters and dace.

I've never seen darters for sale anywhere in the city where I live, dace neither.

The only Dace that's native to my area is the Chub, and not only do they get huge, but they eat everything. Once I was fishing in midsummer, and was able to catch loads of these fish, so much in fact that I ran out of worms. I started fishing with bare hooks, and was still able to catch them, in fact I caught the same one on three different occasions, once with a worm and twice with bare hook. These fish are profoundly stupid, and with an appetite so great that they'd try to eat a bare hook, I don't think I'd like to mix it with a newt.

A tank as you've described, depending upon the speed of the "stream" would work well for Taricha species, in particular rivularis, though I can't recall at the moment, ever seeing rivularis in the pet trade.

In fact, I did try to build a very similar style tank (55 gallon) for my granulosa, but unfortunately I could not get the water to stop leaking into the land area, no matter how much darn sealant I added. I know the pictures are on this website somewhere. I'll add the link if I find them.

Would the granulosa be fish safe?

 

[tmarmoratus]

I keep and have kept some White Cloud Minnows in with my granulosa for a few years now - the fish are too fast for the newts to have anything but the slimmest of chances to catch them, though I have had a few of the minnow disappear over the years. It's not something I worry about, though.

 

[Joost]

That's interesting. I've had that wc minnows years ago in my Cynops orientalis tank. After a few day's they were all eaten. I had more succes with Brachydanio rerio and B. frankei.