C. Orientalis or something else?

[End]

Hi everyone

Two weeks ago I bought a Cynops Orientalis in a pet shop , i usually buy CB animals , but this newt caught my eyes.
She is really different from my other C.Orientalis wich are just black with red-orange belly , and the structure is different to , maybe is just a normal C.Orientalis (nothing wrong) or could be a different species? she have the same color and belly pattern of my C.Cyanurus but other than that she looks different
anyway , i have some pics
ps: she is healthy and a great eater

 

[Azhael]

I think i´ve seen other C.orientalis with similar coloration, although not that marked.
Some individuals have a brown base colour with a dark/black spotting. Something in the lines of this:
http://repticare-forum.nl/Fotoalbum Forum/Overige/Caresheets/Cynops orientalis.jpg

However your animal is certainly different.
I would still think it´s orientalis, but perhaps it´s an hybrid of orientalis/cyanurus or comes from a population where there has been genetic introgression (although neither species are simpatric so maybe not xD).
It looks to me like an abnormally colored individual....judging by the low intensity and located lack of melanin i´d say it´s hypomelanistic.

 

[Yahilles]

I agree with Azhael, the animal seem to be a hybrid with cyanurus. I think that skin structure looks unlike orientalis. Oddly coloured orientalis retain normal, smooth skin. This one has too wrinkled skin for being normal CFBN.
How long is this newt?

 

[End]

thanks
this animal is little over 10 cm

 

[eljorgo]

That big? When i first saw the belly, it looked like ensicauda, but i guess these could not interbreed... 10cm+ is too much to cynops Orientalis and Cyanurus

 

[End]

That big? When i first saw the belly, it looked like ensicauda, but i guess these could not interbreed... 10cm+ is too much to cynops Orientalis and Cyanurus

all of my adult Orientalis females are well over 10cm , but they are 6+ years old

 

[Yahilles]

all of my adult Orientalis females are well over 10cm , but they are 6+ years old

Incredible, i have to see them!

 

[End]

ok some pics
they are not completely "elongated" , first picture my smallest female around 9 cm or little more and the other as you can see is just 10 cm (ok not so "well over" 10 cm) , i have other two females and one is a little bit longer than pics number two

 

[evut]

One of my female Cynops pyrrhogaster used to go really brown when she was younger but it was always for a short period of time. Still, I'd say that it was a simple change of colour otherwise she looked the same (the skin texture and there were no dots or markings).

 

[Azhael]

End, that female is more on the lines of 9cm long, which is perfectly normal for the species.
If the strange coloured female is over 10cm then i´d consider the possibility that it is a different species. Since hybridation is very unlikely due to geographical reasons, then perhaps what you have is a different species/subspecies. After all China is huge and we know almost nothing about it....

 

[Lusiwarrior]

Hi,
at first it seemed just to be a hybrid of orientalis with cyanurus, but ........?
He says that the cyanurus females can reach the 10/11cm, so it's no wonder!

 

[Greatwtehunter]

It looks puffy to me, especially in the legs. This may be one reason it looks different?

 

[End]

yes , you are right , the legs looks a bit shorter and "puffy" , she have a shorter tail to , looks like she is not well proportioned.
Anyway , tonighit she start to lay eggs , i've found six good eggs in the H. Corymbosa , can't wait to see the larvae.
ps: she comes here pregnant already , housed alone in a quarantine box for the moment
thanks everyone for the comment

 

[Lusiwarrior]

Though luck! See if reports the progress! I wonder how they will be the descendants of that animal! I'm sure it must have been fertilized by a C.o, is not it?

 

[Ben Krysa]

Hmmmm. It seems to me this could be a new species or subspecies. It really seems quite unique compared to other cynops newts. I would have to say it most resembles C.cyanurus, but lacks the orange spot behind the eye that seems to be present in almost all cyanurus newts. The redish stripe down the back also throws me off.

When you got this newt was it housed with others like it?
If it was listed as C.orientalis, there is a good chance it originates from somewhere in china.

This one has me thinking.

Has anyone heard of the genus Pingia? I have heard from a few sources that Cynops orientail was renamed Pingia orientalis and there are two less common species of orientalis like newts that were also classified as Pingia.sp. Is it possible this is just a little known species that is not well documented.

Either way, Very beautiful newt. I hope the eggs are fertile. seeing the diversity of how the larvae develope could say a lot about the identity of the newt.

 

[End]

@Ben Krysa : Thanks , in the store she was housed with tons of "regular" Cynops Orientalis and some very young Pachytriton labiatus , they are all imported from China i guess.
I have read some where the name Pingia but other than that i don't remember nothing about.
I hope the eggs are good ( 21 so far) and can help in a better species identification

 

[Azhael]

Pingia was the generic name of a closely related species, Pingia granulosus. In some texts it´s also been used as a synonim to Cynops orientalis.
The new classifications put both in the same genus, but separate them from Cynops (leaving Cynops for pyrrhogaster), and putting them into a new genus, Hypselotriton.

The description of H.granulosus matches almost entirely your animal. I wonder if what you have is in fact H.granulosus, after all they have been rediscovered in the same areas as C.orientalis.

 

[Ben Krysa]

Thanks for the clarification Azhael. Taxonomy is still a little confusing for me. But I keep trying my best to stay on top of things. I have also heard the name Hypselotriton used for orientalis, granulosa and orphicus of the genus cynops. I know how much you love taxonamy, so please feel free to educate/correct me.

I have never really been able to find much information on Cynops granulosa, but I'm always checking any kind of amphibian publishing for new info.

If H.granulosa has been found in the same locations as C.orientalis on a few rare occasions, It would be interesting to learn if this is in fact the species in question.

End, I truly hope these eggs are fertile and will keep a sharp eye on any future post of yours. I'm almost certail if you can raise the offspring it will at least give you a good idea of the identity. Although to prove identity, genetics testing would almost certainly be required.

Good luck

 

[Azhael]

I do love me taxonomy

Hypselotriton has indeed been used for the species you describe. If anyone whises to know more you can check this article:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-...67-new-ergotaxonomy-family-salamandridae.html

 

[Yahilles]

Ahhhm, Azhael, i have just read "Morphological Variation in Pachytriton labiatus and a
Re-assessment of the Taxonomic Status of P. granulosus" and it seems that the mysterious Something granulosus is clearly some species of Pachytriton, not Cynops. Or you mean that there were two "granulosus" species in "modern asian newt group" - one like Cynops and one like Pachytriton.
That's only my opinion as a not[yet]-scientist.