C. e. popei or C. e. ensicauda

[duncan]

Hi All,
I was originally told that my group of 1.4 C. ensicauda were popei, but now I'm not so sure. I was a little suspicious at the beginning because one of my females is striped with only one very small gold fleck, but now I'm really confused. My lone male shows gold flecks on his side (but only under the flash of a camera) and now the 2 juveniles I've managed to raise have the stripes but no gold flecks that I can see. Sorry for the poor photography but any input is appreciated.
Thanks,
Duncan
striped female

male

popei female and dark female

juvenile

 

[paul]

Hi Duncan,

difficult to say by seeing a photo!
A try:
The newt on the first photo looks like C.e.ensicauda, the second can be both but more like C.e.popei. The third newt clearly is C.e.popei. The juvenile can be both, but it looks more like C.e.ensicauda. Juvenile C.e.popei usually do not have that flecks, they develope within the first year.

Paul

 

[jennifer]

The first photo appears to have two light spots on the back, above the cloaca area, and another light spot on the front leg. Are these spots real, or photographic artifacts? If they are real, I could believe that the first one is C.e. popei.

The second photo is ambiguous to me. The nominates sometimes have some tiny speckling (see CC caresheet for comparison), but this looks like slightly larger spots, so perhaps it is popei.

How old is the juvenile? They develop the white spots gradually, during the first couple of months after metamorphosis.

C. e. popei can be almost totally lacking white spots, or the white spots can fade, especially if the animal is kept in low light. Is it possible that whoever sold you these intentionally kept the more brightly colored ones and sent you some of the less-colored ones?

 

[duncan]

Thanks for the input Paul and Jennifer. Jennifer, the first photo does have the gold spots you recognized at the back above the cloaca (I had to go back and check the aquarium, I thought there was only one spot!). The second photo is my only male and therefore I guess is most likely C.e. popei, as he must be the father of the juvenile (which is about 2 months out of the water, thus no spots?). So unless the first striped female is C.e. ensicuada (which seems less likely now that I have seen the second spot) then my whole group must be C.e. popei. This is actually a relief as I wasn't sure how I was going to get a male C.e.popei if the first striped female, the male and the juveniles ended up being C.e. ensicauda. As I'm pretty sure my remaining females are popei. (looking back, the above description is pretty convoluted, I hope everyone can follow it!).

I did end up with two brighter females Jennifer, I didn't post their pictures though as I was pretty sure they were popei. So, the next question is how understood are the genetics of the striped and gold flecked forms of the popei? I have 4 females in with my male; 2 gold flecked, 1 darker (only a couple of flecks) and the striped female above. Would the male preferentially mate with only the striped female and not the gold flecked? Are male newts that selective in their choice of females (to the point of excluding certain color patterns)? Do all juveniles start with the red side stripes like my juvenile does, and then they fade, or is this an indication that they will stay this way (with or without the gold flecks later on)?
Lots of questions I know!
Thanks again,
Duncan

 

[TJ]

Hi Duncan.

This red-striped variety of C. e. popei is not uncommon in the wild. Here is a pic of some being sold on an auction site here in Japan:

(not my pic)

Like these, the red-striped ones I saw in the wild tended to be thinner than the ones without such stripes, for whatever reason. I doubt it means anything, but it's among the things I want to double-check during my next trip to Okinawa.

I'm also interested in the genetic relationships among the different forms. You may be interested in knowing that many popei in the wild have very few dorsal markings at all. These are less likely to make it into the pet trade, however.

I'll post a pic someday of some I once saw that had both thick red lines <u>and</u> very prominant gold flecks.

I have a pair of VERY red-lined popei without gold flecks that I'm keeping separate from the rest to see if the young turn out to be mostly the same. This is still an experiment in progress

As for juvies that start with the red side-stripes, I don't think they lose them over time, although they may or may not develop gold flecks to go with them.

Also, I don't think intraspecies mate selection has been studied yet with regard to C. ensicauda alone, though there has been a bit of such study with regard to C. pyrrhogaster (intraspecies), and C. ensicauda and C. pyrrhogaster (interspecies). This is the kind of thing that perhaps hobbyists could study because scientists are unlikely to get around to it any time soon

 

[terry]

Quoted from Tim

"I'll post a pic someday of some I once saw that had both thick red lines and very prominant gold flecks"

Hello Tim, You mentioned juvies with red stripes and gold flecks? Could this be what you meant?

Sorry for the bad quality of the shot but you could see its general colours. This juvenile and others have predominantly red stripes and gold speckles hand picked by a lady called Yvonne Ris who bred these newts. I obtained most of the striking ones from her as well as the original adults which are supposedly 20 years old and still laying! The female has a strange overbite though. I wonder if this is normal for Cynops or newts in general.

 

[terry]

Here is another shot of different juveniles upon the mossy brick:

 

[duncan]

Seeing as how this post has been revived I thought I'd post some pictures of the juveniles from the original parents pictured in the post from Feb. of this year (when I wasn't certain if I had nominates or popei). You can see that the juveniles have both the stripes and gold flecks of the different parents. I had posted these pics in a different thread, but thought everybody might like a second look here.
Duncan

 

[jennifer]

Terry and Duncan, those are really nice animals! Duncan, would you say that your offspring have turned out more colorful than their parents? I've wondered whether the amount of gold speckling is inherited or random.

Since we're all showing off,

here are some of my adults. I raised these guys from eggs and they are beginning to reach the point where they are old enough to lay eggs.

(Message edited by jennewt on October 15, 2005)

 

[terry]

Excellent pictures Jenn and Duncan!

At least they turned out better than mine! I will probably have to take them out of the enclosure to make decent shots of them. Nevertheless Duncan has one juvenile which resembles a female i have that is more speckled towards the venters rather than dorsaly(sp.)

Another thing is I've rated the colour of speck from white to gold and I have many which display prominent white speckles and only two which merits as gold dust. I believe this system is used in asia to "grade"the newts according to their colouration. Well they have been doing it with Nishikigoi so why not newts yes?
Regards Terry

 

[duncan]

Hi Jenn, Terry
The two juveniles I've pictured are much more colourful than their parents! But having said that, the majority of the offspring haven't been nearly so. As a matter of fact, there has been little gold speckling on any of my juvies with the exception of these two. Most of them do show the red striping however, much like the first female I've pictured at the start of the post (the mother?). There really doesn't appear to be too much rhyme nor reason to the inheritance of the coloration. But then again, with 5 females (of various degrees of striping and gold flecking) in with a single very plain male (almost no visible gold or striping unless under the camera's flash) the juvies could be from any of the "girls". So maybe there is some mechanism that just isn't revealing itself in this eclectic bunch.
Duncan

 

[terry]

Hello Duncan,

I actually wondered if the colouration of the parents have anything to do with how the juveniles would end up. I have read somewhere in this forum that light is also a factor and more speckled individuals are being raised in an environment with more light.

I speculate that creatures kept in a bright place would probably be stimulated to produce more attractive colouration. I need Tim's advice about this.

As for the ratio of gold dust speckling to darker individuals with red stripes. Mine were hand picked and they came from different parents of varying degrees of colouration. I can safely say I have juveniles from parents with rich gold speckling and also from those with prominent red lines. I wonder how will they turn out once they are fullly grown.

Terry

 

[TJ]

Hi Terry, those are some nice popei you have there. Good luck with raising and breeding them.

Here are a couple of pics of the newts I was referring to when I said "I'll post a pic someday of some I once saw that had both thick red lines and very prominent gold flecks."

(though the gold speckles are not quite as "prominent" as I had recalled...)

(Message edited by TJ on October 21, 2005)

 

[TJ]

Duncan, that morph or juvie in the first of the 2 pics you posted is really, <u>really</u> awesome.
Please follow up with more pics later to show us how it develops!

Terry, I've read something about popei being kept in a dark environment losing color, and have experienced newts losing color, but other newts in the same tank retained their color, so I really don't know what effect, if any, the presence or absence of bright light has on coloration

Jen, looks like you have some real winners there!

(Message edited by TJ on October 20, 2005)

 

[terry]

Hey again Tim

You mentioned newts losing colours? Then I could safely mention newts gaining colours! Here is what happened. The adult pair I obtained were rather dull and the breeder said they were losing their colours due to age. Nevertheless after being kept in a well lit aquarium/ new surrounding for a month, I might have noticed the male actually gaining some form of speckling back in his dorsal regions. Then again it could have been the trick of the eye and I am imagining things.

Secondly I am wondering If the parents come from different locales. If I make a photo of their belly patterns, could you roughly estimate from which area they might have originated from?

Many thanks Terry.

p.s. It is hard to believe that a juvenile of 9 cm can devour a worm as long as itself.

 

[TJ]

Hi Terry. That would have been neat if you could have documented that development with photos. Obviously, shedding will make the colors less bright so it'd be better to have a whole series of shots taken at different times to study, not just a couple, to reach any conclusions. I have one newt that had a single, large and very bright special and then lost it...well, almost. It became very hard to see.

I probably wouldn't be able to help with the area based on belly patterns, especially as there is so much variety, even in a single location. You may have already heard, however, that there is a relatively high ratio of ones coming from Tokashiki Island that have long, solid blocks of black coloration on both sides of the belly, nearer the margins. Other than that, I haven't noticed much regional variation, but then I haven't had a chance to look into it in depth (and I haven't been to Tokashiki yet!).

All I can add is that the brightest speckles I've seen on the dorsum have been with newts in the southern part of Okinawa Island, where this animal is now very much threatened. And the ones I've seen from Tokashiki and other islands of the Kerama group, west of Okinawa Island, have generally been dull-colored. In the northern part of Okinawa, one finds all sorts.

(Message edited by tj on October 21, 2005)

 

[terry]

Hello Tim.
It seems that my male might as well be from Tokashiki. The belly had blocks of black underneath and a somewhat reddish/orangey hue (please refer to your picture in Caudata Mag).

The female however shows something else.

She is rather dull coloured and the only thing bright about her is her belly. She is 20 years old.

 

[TJ]

I wouldn't rule it out but I doubt it. It's a very small island and its newts are unlikely to make it into the pet trade with any regularity, much less be sent overseas. Anything's possible though. And even on that island, most newts have belly patterns indistinguishable from those on Okinawa Island. Those that have the somewhat distinctive patterns make up only a small percentage (around 10% as I recall being told by a friend who goes there). And there are newts on Okinawa Island that show similar such patterns.

20 years! Now that's an old newt! I wonder what that would make her in people years...

 

[terry]

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll leave "Land of origin/ Location"as : Japan (on some Island)

Well, I would not know how old she would be in human years but one thing is for certain: She and others outlived her Ex-EX owner.

Greets,
Terry

 

[terry]

Ok, I took a shot of the male and compared it to the one in the magazine.
Still not convinced?
Anyways, Tokashiki or not, there is a striking resemblance.
I'll contact the current breeder and ask her for confirmation. I remembered her showing me some papers in her folder in dutch and it mentioned Yambaru and Tokashiki...