Breeding C.O. et al

[honguita]

Disclaimer: I've been lurking on the site for a while now -- what a great site! I really appreciate all of the information available here. If it would be more appropriate to split this thread or post elsewhere, please let me know! I realize that the number of questions in this thread may be a little annoying, and I apologize in advance for my writing. I assume my questions/concerns are nothing new, so if it's all been asked before I won't be surprised in the slightest but would really appreciate people pointing me in the right direction. I've tried to break things down by category... I am very interested in learning more about other people's experiences in hopes of becoming better steward for these fascinating animals, but I also welcome any data/studies that may be available on these subjects as well.

Introduction: Hi there. :wacko: I have three wonderful Chinese Fire Belly newts, and was recently blessed with my first batch of eggs. Admittedly it happened much earlier than I had intended (though it was part of my long-term vision for my life with newts); shortly after my two males came out of quarantine my female starting laying eggs (and without any temperature conditioning or anything). Honestly I was a little surprised because my new additions seem so young, but now I am seeing that this is a relatively common tale and am very disappointed in myself for not being better prepared. So... I'm looking for advice, and lots of it! I apologize for my newbie-ness, and thank everyone in advance for their time, resources, help and consideration!

Breeding: Broadly I have noted that the recommendation is to separate the eggs from the adults for the safety of the eggs/larvae. I am inclined to follow this recommendation as soon as my tank is ready, as I am quite new to all of this and am excited about the possibility of rearing some newts from egg (and in thinking about all the variables in care, it does seem that isolating them would almost make things easier). I have setup a tank to transfer the eggs into standing by.

In the time it has taken for me to read up on raising eggs, I haven't noted any being eaten in the adult tank, though it is definitely possible I am not seeing everything that's going on. Some of the eggs appear to be very near the hatching point (as compared to the C.P. photos in article section of CC), so I am getting really worried about next steps. My plan is to make the swap over today, since my water should be ready to go now. However, I have read several references to C. Pyrrogaster larvae, for example, being successfully reared with adults. I understand that they are substantially different than C.O., but was curious about the experience people have had with C. Orientalis in this same situation. I am also interested in any tips for reintroducing the larvae into the primary tank at an appropriate size or in the post-terrestrial stage.

• How do C.P. and C.O.'s compare personality-/behavior-wise?
• Will separating the C.O.'s eggs/larvae from the adults give me the best results?
• Aside from the keeper's convenience re: water and space considerations, is there any benefit to rearing the young with adults?
• Are there any disadvantages in separating the eggs/larvae?
• How prevalent is C.O. eating their young? Eggs? Larvae? Morphs?
• Would it have been better to start the new tank from the water in the primary tank and than do the 50% water changes daily from there? I've been so worried about getting "ready" that it just occurred to me that my "fresh" water may not be the best choice here.
• Is it more common to remove eggs immediately or to wait until close to the larvae hatching?
• Is this a choice that can be made based on the personality/behavior of the parent(s)? If so, what are some indicators?
• Are males and females equally as likely to eat their offspring? Have people had experience removing males, but keeping the female in with the larvae habitat?
• I am having a hard time imagining how one might achieve the type of environment described in the rearing article in a mixed setup (e.g., shallower water, lots of access to land to morphs). Does anyone have pictures/experience with providing a good habitat for both larvae and adults (or even all three--larvae, terrestrial and adult stages)?
• Does the tank enviroment play a role in how successful this is (e.g., providing java moss to increase hiding places, larger tank size, etc)?
• Does the diet of the adults have any bearing on this (e.g., variety of foods, live vs frozen diet, etc)?
• Does age of parents and/or past breeding experience play a role?
• When larvae are reared with adults, what considerations are neccessary for safe filtration?
• How is feeding time approached in these habitats? I assume you need to feed separately due to the difference in diet and the risk to the larvae?
• How do you ensure all your larvae are getting enough to eat in this setup?
• In this environment separating larvae would seem to be impossible(?). How do you avoid cannabilism, as descibed in the rearing articles?
• Are newts immune to their own type of toxin (e.g., adults eating eggs/larvae, larval cannabilism, etc)? I am guessing that must be the case... ?
• How much of a risk are well-fed snails to eggs/larvae?

Habitat: I have a 30 gallon tank with natural rock caves, floating and planted elodea and a little mossy garden/land area to haul out on. My water is approximately 10" at the deepest points, with a rock plateau with offering an average depth of 4"-6". In addition to the three C. Orientalis, I have a collection of snails that have joined us with the elodea purchases. I plan to order some bacopa to add to the haul-out to encourage try to better use of the land section, if the newts so desired. They can easily access the land now, but I think they will enjoy it more with the type of transitional cover these plants provide.

• Am also considering the addition of java moss, though haven't ever grown it and am interested in input on this plant. What is the best application for this type of plant in a C.O. habitat? Are there plants that are a better match?
• Terrestrial phase: Has only ever tried to raise terrestrial juveniles in a mixed habitat like this? I assume the easy access to water might be a danger (e.g., drownings, adults mixing with smaller juvs), but was curious about people's thoughts/experiences.

Behavior/Personality: I have three C.O.s and have truly enjoyed the wide variety in their personalities/behaviors. For example, my female is very docile and personable, while larger my gray male is a little more dominant and somewhat food-oriented. Both have done very well with the third tank mate, a tiny, good-natured grayish one who at this time I am also guessing is likely also a male (still so small though I am not sure).

• Do females/males tend to exhibit these traits?
• Would it be likely for her offspring to have this excellent disposition?

Size: My smallest newt is considerably smaller than the larger gray male. From what I've been reading, I wonder if he had even been back in the water very long. My female is the biggest in the tank by a fair margin, but she is just the sweetest newt ever. At first I agonized about the size difference in the newts (was strongly considering maintaining the separate tanks due to worrying about the safety/comfort/happiness of the newts), but after careful introduction and close monitoring (esp. during/around feeding times) it became apparent there wasn't going to be an issue. They spend a lot of time mingling and don't seem to have any ill-effects from sharing a habitat (I actually think they enjoy each other).

• Was I lucky? I feel pretty fortunate, even give the good-nature reputation of these newts.
• Was the mixed gender an advantage in the success of these tankmates?
• Do I need to be concerned about monitoring the smaller gray as he grows (i.e., since he is so small the mid-sized male doesn't seem to be bothered by him, but is this likely to change)? I would not hesitate to separate them if a problem were to arise.
• If the smallest newt is also a male, what is the likelihood of male-to-male aggression increasing as the smaller male matures? Is this more of a concern during breeding season/conditions?
• Is it possible my smallest newt was raised aquatic post-morph, rather than going terrestrial? He was awfully small, but is growing nicely and eats well.

My newts rarely, if ever, spend any time hiding/out of sight during the day (which I've taken to be a good sign?), and spend most of their time together atop the floating elodea waiting for handouts and attention, even though they have plenty of space/opportunity to hide. They seem disinterested in the land section for the most part, but love to hang out in the weeds at the surface. I would describe them as moderately active, though the larger gray male does spend more time touring the tank than the other two. I am less aware of their nightlife activities.

• Any ideas while the larger male spends more time cruising the bottom of the tank? Is there any behavior I should be looking out for (signs of discontentment, etc)?

Coloring: My female has a really gorgeous firey-orange belly, as opposed to my grays who have more of a yellow coloring to their bellies. That being said, I have read that orange bellies can be indicative of WC specimens. irate:

• Is this a sure sign, or could it be from better care/diet as a juvenile or possibly genetic? Or, as I lack another newt of similar color for comparison, is this common for the grays to have more yellow tones?
• How common are the gray and mottled brown colored C.O.s? What color(s) are the offspring likely to be? I assume these two questions are related?
• The smallest newt is sort of off-color (not ash-gray, but not the classic coloring either). Will his color change more as he matures? He has lots of dark speckles on his legs already.

Feeding: I feed my little piglets relatively liberally, with bloodworms being the center of their diet. I do vary foods as much as I can, but have limited access locally and am just grateful to have a steady supply of bloodworms. I don't feel like I'm ready to breed my own live foods just yet (aside from the pop of microfoods that naturally live in my tank and some brine shrimp I attempting to raise for my larvae), but have considered the possibility of trying my hand at other foods for my adults.

• I see that most people don't have good luck feeding the larvae anything but live food, at least at the onset. How much food should I have on-hand for a small batch of larvae (under 10)?
• Has anyone noted increased aggression in their live-feed C.O. adults? For some reason, I have it in my mind that this could be an issue.
• Is it safe to assume wild-caught foods aren't a good idea? I'm not much of a bug-person, but I do realize Alaska is quite a bit different than China, for example. I assume there would be some risk?

They are pleasantly plump, though until my female began laying eggs, I was worried about her being a little on the fat side. They do very well together at feeding time and everyone can eat together peacefully without bickering, though the gray male does try to get more than his fair share. I handfeed though, so am not really concerned about it (the little one eats much slower, so I decided to regulate in this manner). I know of other people who haven't had this luck with their C.O. -- this has left me wondering why this might be.

Well, thanks a ton for taking the time to read all of this. I'll probably have a lot more questions, but I thought this was plenty to start with (don't want to use up all of the goodwill of the community with the first post). I'm sure some of my signals have gotten crosses as I'm crunching through information trying to figure things out and I know I've got a lot going on in this post, but I am very eager to get a better handle on this situation. I really appreciate any feedback you can offer on these topics, and thank you in advance for sharing your experiences and expertise -- my newts thank you too! :wacko: Take care!
:smile: Julie

 

[froggy]

Hi Julie
Congratulations on breeding you newts, and welcome to to community! Without meaning to sound patronising, it is great to see the amount of care and research you have put into keeping your first newts. I am glad that you have found the site useful so far.
I am a bit short of time, so I will just comment on the breeding/egg-raising section, as that is, I think, of the most immediate concern to you. I would strongly advise you to separate the eggs from the parental tank. Particularly if you aim for most of the larvae to survive (as opposed to a more natural few), you want high growth rates in the larvae, which means high food density, and so high waste output. Using separate raising setups will allow you to maintain gtood water quality, even with many growing larvae in the water, as it is easier to remove waste food, faeces etc. This will also prevent the stress of more fequent water changes on you adults. Also, you will be able to monitor the larvae more easily, and so detect any problems earlier, when they are more easily addressed. Furthermore, as you point out, modifying the setup for different points of larval life is very much more difficult in the parental tank, and will stress you adults every time you alter the setup.
You have two options, really, with regards to what kind of separate larval setup you use: 'natural' or 'simple'. A natural setup is basically a separate version of the adult tank, with substrate, plants, hiding places etc etc and has the advantage of greater water chemistry stability, reduced risk of cannibalism/aggression (because of more hiding places), and the availability of some microfoods that live and breed in the tank. However, these setups do not allow as easy monitoring of the larvae and can cater for lower larval densities unles lots of food is added (in which case, you will have add a lot extra food to acheive the same food densities as you would in a smaller, simple tub). A simple setup basically involves rearing the larvae in a more controlled, spartan environment, with basic decor (if any). These sorts of setups mean larvae are more easily monitored, usually can be housed at higher densities, as providing plenty of food is more efficient, and can easily be moved to new setups with land areas when morphing is beginning. However, maintenance effort is higher for these setups as they typically require more frequent water changes and extra feeding attention. They do often yield larger larvae, however, and if you are raising a lot, will reduce the amount of space the enclosures take up. Also, if you use a number of smaller tubs, all your eggs are not in one basket in th case of sudden die-offs.
There is a spectrum of setups between these two extremes, from large, mature aquariums to individual deli cups with a singe larva in each one.

I usually use the large plastic storage tubs, which you can buy from hardware shops, for raising larvae, or smaller plastic tubs if I have fewer animals. This kind of setup requires less inensive management than the most simple of setups, but still allows easy monitoring etc of larvae.

It is deifinitely possible to rear larvae alongside adults (as happens in the wild), but it is much more difficult to raise lots of larvae in this way. If you separate most of the eggs, you could always leave a small number in with the adults to see how they do.

You could create a setup for larvae/adults/morphs if you had a very large tank, with a large terrestrial setup as part of it (for the morphs) and then two completely separated aquatic sections, one for adults, one for larvae. This would be very expensive, although potentially attractive, and could be difficult to maintain.

One other consideration is to make sure that you have a source of livefood (e.g. a brineshrimp hatchery) ready for when the larvae begein to feed. There is an article on this sort of thing on caudata culture, in the articles section.

I'm sorry if this a bit of a rambling message, but hopefully it will help you in rearing the larvae.

Good luck with rearing the larvae.

Chris