Axolotl Conspitation - the medical solution

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HitmanSougo13

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Hi guys,

I am probably going to receive some criticism for posting this but really I just want to help axolotls. I lost one last year due to constipation. I tried fridging and taking it to the vet who was very rough with my axie and gave it a laxative by injection.

I have learned much from a friend now who used to research axolotls and they raise hundreds of them at a University. The researchers there do not really believe in fridging since it slows down metabolism and metalbolism helps make poop make its way and neither does my vet, you know, the one I happen to not trust anymore regardless how contradicting that sounds.

My other axolotl recently had constipation and I was determined to save her.

The medical ingredient by the researchers is sennoside. I used pill form of sennokot or ex-lax. Ex-lax does has a coating but it is a stronger medication where sennokot is gentler and has no coating. Try to pick a medication that is gentle and is the kind that needs at least 2 pills per dose for an adult person. It also has to be non flavored. Preferably do not go with liquid laxative,it is extremely easy to overdose since they will absorb it more.

A normal dose is for an average adult weight so translate that back for an axolotl. They need the dose of literally 1/5 of an ex-lax pill @ 15 mg of sennoside.

Sennoside has a high melting point so have a pan with a little bit of water and boil say 2-3 pills if you want for better control of the dosage. The pills wont completely dissolve due to the high melting point. However, you can get the mixture quite concentrated. So when it has been simmering to the point where you no longer feel it is dissolving any further pour the mixture into a measuring cup and measure how much liquid you have. Let it cool and settle. Now use a syringe to gather the required dose. Ie if you made 30 ml of dosage with 3 pills than each 10 ml roughly is one pills dose so give your axie 2ml of medicine.

Have your axolotl in a small tub. And put the dosage into the water each day. Axolotls can absorb medicine in water. If results are not visible in 24 hours do not get discouraged but also consider rubbing your axie's butt just to aid with loosing them up. Your axolotl may not enjoy food so much during the medication as the water will be a bit bitter.

 
Please don't take this the wrong way, as I certainly do not intend to be negative when you are obviously posting this info for the purposes of discussion and in a bid to help axolotls, given so many vets seem to know so little about them and so little research seems to have been done about looking after them properly (as opposed to doing strange and often cruel things to them in laboratories). However, this is incredibly confusing to me.

I am interested in the researchers not believing in fridging for the treatment of constipation, because it was my understanding that the reason fridging helped constipation (or impaction) was exactly because of the slowing down in the metabolism. It is this that causes the axolotl to empty its digestive tract (or attempt to) of food its system may now, due to the low temperature, not be able to digest fully before it rots. This causes them to poop (and apparently to vomit recently consumed food).

I am also concerned at what sounds like a rather hit-and-miss method of extracting the active ingredient from tablets. Wouldn't it be very hard to know what percentage of it has been extracted from each tablet? Whether some (and if so, how much) had been destroyed by heat (and if so, at what temperature)? Whether there are any chemical changes at high temperature, and so on ad infinitum.

Then there's the other ingredients and fillers in the tablets and any side-effects they may have on an axolotl. Also, how do they dissolve? Do they change chemically or interact with any other ingredients at high temperature? Etc.

And rubbing it on their butt? What exactly is the mechanism of action of this particular drug? How would rubbing it on their butt improve this, assuming the effect is systemic and given that absorption of the medication is from the tank water and through the skin.

Is there any evidence behind the use of this medication in axolotls or is the support basically anecdotal? How many axies have they treated in this way and with what level of success? How many of these axies would have recovered (pooped on their own) anyway?

I may just be incredibly ignorant in asking these questions (and I have dozens of others, but won't bore everyone with more), but there seem to be lots of logical holes in this information. I would love to hear from someone who can explain this to me.
 
I agree with Sweetie.

Treating animals with human medicines is risky even with mammals, let alone with completely different kinds of animals such as axolotls.

Axolotls are also adapted to colder water and can survive close to freezing point. At that temperature their metabolism slows down and they empty their stomach by pooping and womiting out as much as they can to avoid everything rotting inside them.

Also the dose seems a bit off.
...Try to pick a medication that is gentle and is the kind that needs at least 2 pills per dose for an adult person...

...A normal dose is for an average adult weight so translate that back for an axolotl. They need the dose of literally 1/5 of an ex-lax pill @ 15 mg of sennoside...
Click to expand...

So if the normal dose is 2 pills for an average 70 kg adult, then 1/5 of one pill would be for 7 kg. An axolotl weighs maybe around 0.15-0.3 kg. Even if you take into consideration that some of the medicine won't be absorbed from the water, it still seems way off.
 
1. Seeing as senna is a locally acting drug (it is actually the metabolites that are active), as opposed to a systemic acting drug, I can't see how adding it to an axie's water would actually work.

2. How did you calculate the dosage of 15mg? Senokot tablets have 154mg of active ingredient per tablet, the dose is 2 tablets for a human of 50-100kg. Even assuming that the lower weight is used that makes the dose 6mg/kg. Using that, the correct dose for an axie (weighing an average 200g) would be 1.2mg - a tiny fraction of one tablet (0.008 of a tablet).

3. Where did you get this information from? Do you have any qualifications or experience in vetinary, biological, chemical, pharmeceutical or biochemical sciences?

4. The fridging method is supposed to slow the axie's metabolism, and make them 'purge' their digestive system in order to expel food and waste before is spoils. It also allows the owner to leave his axie for a while without feeding, and allowing the axie's body to catch up with digestion. This method has been used by hobbyists for a long time, and it works for most of us.

I'm sorry, but your argument, calculations and 'advice' seems to be way off. If you have valid sources for your information please quote them.
 
I think the rubbing of the axolotl's butt isn't with the medicine, but just to stimulate the axolotl to poop. I don't really know if this would work for axolotls, I doubt it though. I've only read about it with animals like cats, where a mother cat would lick the kitten's butt to get them to poop.
 
My researcher friend told me to use 1/5 of a pill for an adult axolotl but I believe he was referring size and not weight and the notion that you lose some percentage of the dose when you crush it and when you can't fully dissolve it. I definitely had those same questions that some of you guys asked and I wished folks who really studies them would want to participate in these forums. How many axolotls did they try this on and it worked? Sadly, axolotls are studied for their regenerative properties not because they make a cute pet. I do understand either way the concept appears off regardless, I am sure size wise we are way bigger than 10x of an adult as well.

Have I had success with this? Yes. Did I wish I did this with my first axolotl instead of taking it to the crazy vet who kept arguing that my axolotl needed to be warmed up and who has ever seen an axolotl twice (the first time and the second time)..absolutely. Do I know any side effects of using it? No, but do axolotls die from constipation? Yes and often.

Do I have any background and a lot of experience with axolotls, of course not, but then neither do most vets and the rest of us. But I think I would take my chances with those researchers at the university provided they do take care of hundreds of them. Have I visited the university to see them in action? No.

What I am trying to say is if we nit pick all these things then we challenge ourselves to many other problems...Aren't food pellets composed of fillers too, what is the success rate of fridging? Either way at the end, we have decisions to make as axolotl pet owners and I prefer to take action. I would love natural remedies because I try really hard to just take natural remedies for myself yet no researcher has mentioned such other solutions.
 
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I'm sorry if this is a dumb question and PLEASE no one take this the wrong way but can axolotls really die from constipation? ( my guys were having problems for a while and I haven't really seen poop so this may be a real concern for me!) and again sorry I just haven't heard of any axies dying from this before (I may just not have been here long enough, I've heard about them dying from literally everything else!) and please don't take offense I'm just genuinely getting concerned for my guys...
 
Yah conspitation if it is not cured crushes their insides. They just keep accumulating poop. Plus they don't really eat since the poop is occupying all their body space. It is not surprising a lot of folks don't realize that is a killer for axolotls because physically the axolotl looks fine and healthy looking. But they should poop every couple of days.

Looking back I probably could have written the whole article better hahha. But maybe I can edit it better next time so it is more consistent. Ex lax is still the pill I prefer to give them and is the one my friend from the University of California recommends.
 
allied123 said:
can axolotls really die from constipation?
Click to expand...

Yes - as can every other animal on the planet!

When an animal doesn't poop it just builds up, the animal becomes bloated, and the poop becomes impacted into a solid lump. This solid lump doesn't move, effectively plugging the digestive system.

Ultimately the obstruction causes reduced blood flow within the digestive tract due to the increased pressure, then cell death of the digestive tract walls, leading to ruptures or necrosis, septacaemia and death.
​
 
Really well written explanation about constipation Aunt Judy. makes me realize how badly I wrote the article originally...I was cooking dinner while writing so I was not all that focused. I have pictures now of the process but we'll see if I figure out if its worth rebooting the article. I don't have article sources from the university, just word of mouth from the researcher who took care of hundreds of axolotls at the University of California. So I hear the stories.

The only thing where I have found another person who also uses ex-lax for constipation is a place called buy-axolotls.com. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120418221724AAIjLfG

Of course it's not surprising places that sell or raise massive amount of them do not have time to take care of them individually which is why they rely on medical treatments. Most of us likely cringe hearing this since it seems so uncanny and uncertain.

The ex-lax solution is not the best solution in any way, it should be considered under dire circumstances. Especially you have tried other methods for days and you are just so uncertain but don't want to give up yet.
 
I spoke with my friend, there is 50 years of experience with axolotls in the lab. To answer some questions. They don't believe in fridging because it slows everything down which is really only good against bacterial and fungal problems in their understanding. Because it slows everything down they don't believe it helps their digestive system catch up. What they believe is when you change an axolotl's environment, ie put them in a fridge, that really just makes the axolotl nervous because they are now in a sick tub stuck in a fridge which does have a chance to make them poop. Literally like you getting scared and s&&ting your pants.

One way they feel works for encouraging an axolotl to poop too is to increase the temperature say up 20 degrees but definitely under say 23-25 degree and while higher temperatures are not great for an axolotl, it does not harm them too much if it was done for a few days. But high temperatures also allow any bacteria or fungal problems to thrive.

Could you guys imagine how much we really can learn from challenging what we think is good for axolotls? My mind is constantly in question about this whole notion of how to save axolotls. I have tried fridging before too and it was a hit and miss where often my previous axolotl just looked pissed the whole time.

To tell you the truth, My little axolotl just had conspitation for 2 weeks actually (it takes about a week to notice) so I used the exlax formula for 3-4 days, yesterday I turned up the temperature to 19 when it is usually 17 and we have poop today! It was super solid looking.
 
What they believe is when you change an axolotl's environment, ie put them in a fridge, that really just makes the axolotl nervous because they are now in a sick tub stuck in a fridge which does have a chance to make them poop. Literally like you getting scared and s&&ting your pants.
Click to expand...

If that was the case then they'd also do it when you have to move them. I've had to move my axies back and forth a few times and they have never pooped while moving. And personally I'd consider being in a small container in a moving, shaking car a lot scarier than being in the same container, but very still in a fridge.

Don't get me wrong, if something really does help an axie then I'm all for it, but using medication that has not been properly tested on them with a really unaccurate dose is not the way to do it. There's a high change you end up doing more bad than good. People have used the fridging technique successfully for a long time (even those that study axolotls), so flat out saying it doesn't work sounds pretty sketchy to me.
 
keiko said:
If that was the case then they'd also do it when you have to move them. I've had to move my axies back and forth a few times and they have never pooped while moving. And personally I'd consider being in a small container in a moving, shaking car a lot scarier than being in the same container, but very still in a fridge.

Don't get me wrong, if something really does help an axie then I'm all for it, but using medication that has not been properly tested on them with a really unaccurate dose is not the way to do it. There's a high change you end up doing more bad than good. People have used the fridging technique successfully for a long time (even those that study axolotls), so flat out saying it doesn't work sounds pretty sketchy to me.
Click to expand...

Hiya, i definitely don't disagree and I have this feeling you are not supportive of lab medicine and the use of drugs and personally I am too. I make my own natural bug spray and acne wash and I take oil of oregano and use essential oils. And If the researchers at the university used natural remedies and said it works, I would jump for it.

You what to know something really weird? You know how everyone supports indian almond leaves as a natural remedy? There is no research that proves that the use of indian almond leaves does not cause any long term side effects. That just pushes us all back to square one with the notion that you just need to take action and do what it takes to have your axolotl pass through a life or death scenario.

Although your comment is also kind of questionable. Because moving the axolotl is not what makes an axolotl register the environment is different, that the entire 'house' is different. That is more so them registering disturbance or a threat. And I cant read their minds but maybe when you move them they didn't need to poop? :D in the end I can't voucher for either or, I can't say fridging works for constipation and I also can't say I am sure the researcher are right that fridging does not help with constipation.
 
Actually I'm in no way against man-made medicine. I have however come across some pharmacology in my field of studies and understand the basic mechanisms how medicines work. Therefore I also understand that what works for one species can be fatal to another. Now I'm not saying that your axie will drop dead if you use this method, but it has not been studied enough to say it's safe either. The difference between man-made medicine and indian almond leaves for example is that man-made medicine is just that - man-made. They are a lot stronger compounds than those that are found in nature and some are completely different. I know Terminalia catappa is not native to the regions where axolotls are from, but the basic flavonoids. tannins, antioxidants etc. in the leaves are often rather similar. But I don't think that you should use indian almond leaves either unless they're needed.

One big thing that makes me question this treatment is the dose and how it's delivered to the animal for reasons stated in previous posts already.
 
Haha it is funny how it turned out, I actually am not the most fond of man made medicine. I definitely don't feel man made medicine is the best remedy for humans and animals alike. But money for pharmaceutical research often goes towards made made (possibly branded) medicine. You do have very valid concerns about compounds with man man medicine and how they break down. Yet, there is no long term study done on all known remedies for axies but we some idea that axies are really good at healing provided nothing else is attacking their body. Fridging in my own experience was hit and miss...sometimes it worked and helped and other times it just pissed my axolotls off. It just goes back to a personal preference for owners to figure out what they are comfortable doing for an axolotl.

I can definitely ask my friend again next time I catch him how they figured out that dosage. But since the predecessors at the lab were the ones who figured it out the medical version to help with constipation, I think he just uses their formulas. I did ask if they kept documentation for all their remedies but they don't have one. I am not sure how much beer I am going to have to give him to get more information. :)
 
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Hi,
Is Axolotl floating a sign of constipation? My Axolotl has floated constantly for about a week now and I'm getting worried.
 
Hi I am not getting much information recently on your situation, I do see the thread. You need to pass some more details. Ie. have you noticed it pooping the last 2 weeks? Are you feeding it at all? An axie won't eat too much if it is constipated yet it will look plump still. I think I see a lump on your axie when it was caught with the plants in the video but I can't tell.

You can choose to do this method but it is up to you. I am not trying to encourage or sell the method. I am not sure if you also already tried fridging.

But the method I am posting is:
Extract 1/5 of a liquified exlax pill (non flavored and for gentle overnight relief)

Put the dose into the sick tub once a day for up to 3-4 days max and give it until the 4-5 day until the axie poops. Also consider boosting the temperature (ie if your temp is 18c boost it to 21c or something but not over 23c) also the axolotl will have a lot of pooping for the next few days after.
 
Yes, axies die of constipation, I lost one this summer to impaction. I wish I could have tried this remedy, as nothing else worked, she turned septic, got a bacterial infection, and she was too far gone to save her, even with antibiotics. One thing I did learn is that Indian Almond leaves should never be used. The herpitologist my vet consults said the pH change they cause can be fatal, and the benefits are questionable and anecdotal. Many people recommend them, but I do not use them at all any more.
 
The pH change would be very marginal unless you use a lot of Indian almond leaves. I once tested the pH before and after adding a few Indian almond leaves in my tank and in 7 days (tested every day) I didn't get really any changes - the pH was every day about 7.4. Ofcourse KH plays a role in this.
Real wood can also change pH, the pH of your tap water might fluctuate a bit and pretty much anything you do or add to your tank might cause some changes.

Ofcourse you shouldn't use as many Indian almond leaves as suggested on some packages, those instructions are usually for betta breeders etc.

The effect of Indian almond leaves has not been studied much, but many hobbyists have used them with seemingly good results.
 
That makes sense. If little enough is needed that there is a negligible change in pH, then the benefits of the leaves probably outweigh the risk. I have used them with my fish before, and have them on hand. So, for a twenty gallon tank with two little guys in it, how much would you use? The gill problem has not changed, and still looks like it might fall off any second, but so far it doesn't look worse and he is still eating. Still hoping for the best.
 
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