Illness/Sickness: Again? Sick Newt...

[newtons13]

Hey all! Sorry it's been so long, but all has been well, thankfully, for a while. Hope the same for all of you. = )

Some of you may remember me from late last year, I had a sick newt then. It seems to be happening again.

Background, last newt:
1) bloating
4) incoordination, unable to swim
3) arching back as if in pain, not defense (would stay like that for hours/days)
4) weight loss
5) shedding
I separated this newt, with held food briefly, then fed him smaller amounts, and tried waxworms. Eventually I had to put him to sleep. Anbisol (benzoacaine) does NOT work as stated in the clinical trial information obtained from an article linked to this web site. It took more than 10 minutes, and a full bottle for him to die, and he was writhing almost the whole time.

New problem:
This newt is exhibiting similar symptoms.
1) bloating
2) inability to swim (I found him tangled in a plant one morning)
3) crooked spine, this time it appears to be curved to the right. R side hind leg apears to have lost coordination and ability to function somewhat.
4) frequent skin shedding (weekly?)
I have separated him to a shallow tank.

To me these cases both seem to imply a neurological problem since the symptoms are very similar, and i can see no trauma. It appears that they slowly loose abilities and coordination. Or is it possible to get hurt while mating? I have a sexually agressive newt who randomly will try to mate with the others in the tank during the first few weeks of spring. I cannot tell who he is humping, as they all look the same, so do not know if this ill one was a victim.

All of my newts (3 at this time) are male Rough Skinned Newts (Taricha Granulosa). I do not know their age, as I rescued them from a woman I knew who could not provide adequate care.

Any insight as to what is happening, or a better way to euthanize him would be appreciated. I am giving him a quiet safe place to live, and am hoping, but not expecting a recovery.

Thank you all, once again.

~Rachel

 

[vistajpdf]

Do you have an exotic vet you could take it to? Does seem to be neuro, but could have originated in an infection. I don't think I'd ever attempt an euthanasia at home though I know the site did have some info on it - is that where you read up on it?

I hope the others with more experience will chime in. Did you check out the section on bloat? Keep it isolated.

Dana

 

[newtons13]

Do you have an exotic vet you could take it to? Does seem to be neuro, but could have originated in an infection. I don't think I'd ever attempt an euthanasia at home though I know the site did have some info on it - is that where you read up on it?

I hope the others with more experience will chime in. Did you check out the section on bloat? Keep it isolated.

Dana

That's what people thought last time. Infection, kidney/liver problem, or trauma. I think there may be one Vet sorta near by who could look at him. The problem is, it is very costly, and they didn't seem to have too much experience. I think for right now I'm going to sit tight, do research, and take him to the vet imn a week or so, for an exam, and possible euth. Yes, I found the various methods through links on this website. They came down to pithing or benzoacaine. The latter seemed less traumatic an violent for all parties. Wrong. It was supposed to numb him and put him to sleep, but all it did was cause what appeared to be pain/discomfort, and was traumatic.

Thank you for your help. I'm (not for the sake of the newt) hoping maybe somebody has gone through similar stuff by now, and might be able to offer some suggestions. Beyond smaller feeding, and isolation.

I wonder is there a specific forum for this type of newt???

~Rachel

 

[ferret_corner]

No,this is where your issue belongs. Please don't post anywhere else.

You aren't getting a lot of replies because people are stumped. There are a couple of herp vets that pop by. Some are more inclined to give out helpful advice than others.

But your situation does sound dire and if nothing else they don't deserve to suffer.

Here is the article again http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml . If nothing else maybe one of the vets will have updated information on amphibian euthanasia.

I read this but had nothing helpful to say, and so, said nothing, but your post isn't being ignored, just no one has anything to add.

I hope you find a sympathetic vet. MAYBE one of our board vets can direct your vet as to what tests or treatment can/should be done.

 

[Jennewt]

Yes, I found the various methods through links on this website. They came down to pithing or benzoacaine. The latter seemed less traumatic an violent for all parties. Wrong. It was supposed to numb him and put him to sleep, but all it did was cause what appeared to be pain/discomfort, and was traumatic.

I am very sorry to hear that. I have euthanized 2 animals (one newt, one toad) using Orabase, which is a thick paste containing 20% benzocaine. I dabbed it onto the belly. In my case, there was no sign of any pain or discomfort. Can you give me more details - what product you used, what its ingredients are, etc.? If you prefer, we can discuss by PM or meet in the chat. The benzocaine method was recommended to me by a zoo person, but if we need to add some additional information or precautions to that article, I will certainly revise it, and be grateful to you for your help.

I agree with Sharon - the lack of replies is due to people not having any great ideas for what you can do. All the symptoms you list are symptoms of sick newts. All these symptoms can have multiple possible causes (bacteria, viruses, parasites, toxicity, old age, etc). I wish your newt the best of luck.

 

[newtons13]

Jennewt and Sharon,

Thank you. I didn't mean to sound ignored. Just worried. It sucks that it's happening again, and worries me that I may have to go through this 2 more times with the 2 "healthy" ones I have left.

I think this time I will find a Vet, if at least to put him in a better place, and maybe find out some infromation about what's causing it to possibly prevent it from occuring again.

New development, he is now discolored. i thought it was just shedding skin, but it doesn't appear to be so. I'm going to try to upload a picture which really shows the twisted shape and the discoloration.

Unfortunately I will have to wait until after July 4th to get him looked at, as I don't get paid until the 3rd, and a lot of people will be out of town briefly for the holiday.

Last time I used Kank+A since it has 20.0% Benzocaine as stated in the article. When I put it on his belly and chest he writhed for a while, after a few minutes I oured most of the bottle on him. I watched for a minute or two but was so disturbed i put him in the refrigerator and went out for a smoke. When I got back he was still somewhat alive, so I left him a while longer and he finally passed. PLEASE let me know if I did something wrong.

Thanks again.

~Rachel

Ps: sorry I'm so spazzy on here, it just freaks me out to think of going through that agin. I'll try to relax a bit :happy:

 

[newtons13]

I have posted 2 pictures which you can find on my profile (only album) titled New Sick Newt.

Thanks.

 

[audrey]

As Jen has stated your newt is exhibiting symptoms that could be from many illnesses or causes.
However, if I was going to start to try to pin point why this is reoccuring I would start here....
What size of tank are your newts in and how often are you doing water changes?
I saw that there was a rock substrate in your pictures. Does the tank he was in also have a rock substrate? Are you making sure to get all the wastes out from underneath those rocks during water changes? That kind of accumulation can take a long time to be noticable but can cause serious illness to your newts.
As for the picture, the coloration difference on the skin appears to be skin shed. It looks to me like your newt is having problems shedding its skin and that is what that discoloration is- also a symptom of stress or illness.
What are your temperatures?
Do you have a place for them to climb out of the water?
Are you feeding them blackworms and if so is there a blackworm culture in the tank?
What are you feeding them? Waxworms are not a good food source but I am assuming that was just a quarranteen food. An unbalanced diet or one lacking in nutrition can cause bone problems. A more varied food diet or vitamin suppliments can help with that.
What are your temperatures? Have you had a large increase or a lot of flucuations with the summer arriving?
Is the newt still eating?
Answering those questions may give us a better idea of what could be causing this problem in your newt.

 

[Jennewt]

The issues raised by Audrey are worth considering, for the wellbeing of your remaining newts.

The ingredients in OraBase are:
Active Ingredients: Contains: Benzocaine (20%)
Inactive Ingredients: Cellulose Gum, Flavor, Pectin, Plasticized Hydrocarbon Gel, Preservatives, Xanthan Gum

The ingredients in KankA are:
Active Ingredients: Benzocaine (20% w/v) (Oral Anesthetic/Analgesic), Compound Benzoin Tincture (Oral Mucosal Protectant)
Inactive Ingredients: Benzyl Alcohol, Cetylpyridinium Chloride, Dimethyl Isosorbide, Ethylcellulose, Flavor, Octylacrylamide/Acrylates/Butylaminoethyl/Methacrylate Copolymer, Oleth 10, PEG 6, Propylene Glycol, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Saccharin, SD Alcohol 38B (29.6% v/v), Tannic Acid

I believe that the response of your newt was probably due to the alcohol or other "inactive" ingredients in the KankA product. "SD Alcohol 38B" is some form of denatured ethyl alcohol, and it comprises ~30% of the KankA product, so I'll bet that was irritating. In particular, the chemicals used to denature alcohol are pretty nasty.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will edit the article to warn against using benzocaine products that are alcohol-based.

 

[Jennewt]

I edited the euthanasia article to warn against using alcohol-based benzocaine products.

 

[newtons13]

I edited the euthanasia article to warn against using alcohol-based benzocaine products.

Good call. I do imagine that alcohol based product would hurt, esp. with their sensitive and absorbent skin. When I went into it the first time, I was primarily looking for the Benzocain, and didn't really consider the other ingredients. Wow, I feel pretty bad. But it is also a learning experience. Though in the future i will not be doing it myself.

 

[newtons13]

As Jen has stated your newt is exhibiting symptoms that could be from many illnesses or causes.
However, if I was going to start to try to pin point why this is reoccuring I would start here....
What size of tank are your newts in and how often are you doing water changes?
I saw that there was a rock substrate in your pictures. Does the tank he was in also have a rock substrate? Are you making sure to get all the wastes out from underneath those rocks during water changes? That kind of accumulation can take a long time to be noticable but can cause serious illness to your newts.
As for the picture, the coloration difference on the skin appears to be skin shed. It looks to me like your newt is having problems shedding its skin and that is what that discoloration is- also a symptom of stress or illness.
What are your temperatures?
Do you have a place for them to climb out of the water?
Are you feeding them blackworms and if so is there a blackworm culture in the tank?
What are you feeding them? Waxworms are not a good food source but I am assuming that was just a quarranteen food. An unbalanced diet or one lacking in nutrition can cause bone problems. A more varied food diet or vitamin suppliments can help with that.
What are your temperatures? Have you had a large increase or a lot of flucuations with the summer arriving?
Is the newt still eating?
Answering those questions may give us a better idea of what could be causing this problem in your newt.

I try to do water changes about every 2 weeks. I use a hand vacuum, and o get under all the rocks. I have large aquarium gravel. Ones that they wouldn't be able to choke on or swallow, as well as some glass baubles. I can't remember the tank size. I think it is 30 gallon, with about half water (15 gallons) and they do have a lovely area up above the watre line where they love to hang out. I have plastic plands, and some real plants in there.
As far as the temperature, it is air/room temp. I live in Oregon, so it is probably between 50 and 70 degrees. It was quite sold during winter (but didn't seem to bother them) and now it is warmer. Today it was about 86 degrees peak temp. outside and prob about 75 inside. But yes, there have been temp. fluctuations, though nothing that they wouldn
t experience in the wild where i've seen them in lakes up in the mountains.
I feed them bloodworms, and take them out of their tank to do so, so that there are no fights or agression, and so that the tank wont get too nasty. i bring their separate feeding containers to the tank (most of the time ) and minimize handling, as well as washing my hands before and after feeding. If there are food/supplement suggestions, please let me know.

I appreciate all the help from everybody!

 

[audrey]

Well I can't say that I can come up with anything definate from your info but here are a few thoughts...
First of all you could certainly increase your water level in the tank. They are great swimmers and if you have a land area then you can fill the tank nearly to the top.
Secondly I would highly recommend feeding your newts in their normal tank rather than handling them regularly even though you are cautious. They are not an aggressive species and will do fine eating together. If you are concerned about wastes, just use a food dish - like a shallow bowl of some sort. They will adjust to it very quickly and you can suck leftover food out with a turkey baster.
Third - I would suggest adding chopped nightcrawler pieces in with your bloodworms. They will add more nutrition to their diet. I would start with small peices, about 1/4 of an inch but once they get used to eating them you can increase the size some.
I also think that your temps may be getting kind of high. In the wild granulosa can swim very deep which means they can stay cool when the temp increases but this is not possible in captivity. Thus they may be experiencing temps that are unnatural.
As far as your sick guy goes, if he will still eat, try feeding him the small pieces of nightcrawler - from tongs or stick the worm on the end of a toothpick and put it right in front of his nose - try this a few times but if he rejects it then leave it in front of his hide and don't hand feed it again until the next day. Keep him on moist paper towel in a cool, dark place with a hiding spot. If he seems more comfortable in water then shallow water is fine too - main thing is keep him cool - but not refrigerator cool- which will slow down his metabolism and take away his appetite...if he has one.
Change the water daily or the paper towels every other day.
If you are hand feeding or leaving worm on the wet paper towels, then you can use Rep-Cal's HERPTIVITE to dust on the worms and add more nutrition.
Hope that helps - keep us posted

 

[newtons13]

Sadly on saturday July 4th I found him with his hind legs folded under him and unable to use them. it was like he was hugging his cloaca. I took him to an emergency vet. hospital near by and had him euthanized.

I didnt realize how sad i actually am until i saw the most recent pics of him.

Thans for the advice.

I didn't even think about how the lake I've seent thm in is 30 feet deep and must be much cooler! What is the proper temp? I will remedy that aspect asap.

As for the feeding, would i just use a dish on the dry land with some water in it, and let them climb up to find it? Or should I just dump the food in the water. The turkey baster adds a whole new level of cleanliness to my little operation here. thanks!

~r

 

[audrey]

I am really sorry to hear about your newt passing. I wish there had been a way to save him.

As far as temps go, really 70F is as high as you want to go.
There is a caresheet here that tells more about that kind of thing-
http://caudata.org/cc/species/Taricha/T_granulosa.shtml

As far as a feeding dish goes, I would just set it on the bottom of your aquarium - you could use a terracotta dish - one of those almost flat ones that they use underneath the potted plants to catch the water - or something like that....I am posting a pic - wrong kind of newt in this case but same kind of food dish....

Hope that helps.

 

[newtons13]

Thank you. Me too. But it's really just part of life, and at least we have the power to help them go peacefully and as painlessly as possible.

Cool. I really thought the worms would float away, but I see they settle pretty well. I'll get one of those plates. That's an awesome idea! for now I think i'll just use the tupperware that i was using to feed them. This will help keep the cat from being so curious too. I fed them in the bathroom, and always had to close the door drawing immediate attention from the kitty = )

Thanks for all the info, advice, and empathy.

~r
:happy:

 

[audrey]

The best way to keep the bloodworms from floating is to let them melt in a separate container and then suck them up in the turkey baster and gently release them into the food dish. As for the nightcrawler pieces, the same kind of prep helps, put them in a separate container of water and swirl them around a bit to get rid of the worm slime that makes them float - then suck them up and put them in the dish too. That should keep them from floating away - you still have to check for pieces that go flying while they are eating though - they can get caught under the substrate and pollute the water.
Good luck!

Here are a couple of pictures - one of the water level I use for grans and the other of the food dish - right kind of newts this time .

 

[newtons13]

I tried it again (before reading your last post) and it worked a little better, but one of them couldn't figure it out =) silly newt. I appreciate all the advice though, and will continue to attemp this.

I love your setup, and think I am going to try to copy it. I like how bright it is. Half of mine is dim due to their land area, which could probably be smaller.

So, I got a thermometer, and the water has been around 70-75 most days, but peaked at almost 80 degrees one day. How would I go about cooling the water? The thermometer is closest to the window (which is about 3 feet away, and faces past them, not into the tank), and thereby keeping me posted on the warmest temps...

I will continue to improve their home and lives as I can.

Thanks again!

Any suggestions on feeding them while I'm away? I may just have a friend put the worms in the water, and clean it when I get back. Bad idea?? Proably. And is it ok to cut back on their feeding at that time. I usually feed them 2-3 days a week, i'm wondering if 2xs in 10 days would be ok. I'll feed them right before I leave too... Just thinking out loud kind of.

~Rachel