A correction...

[ryan]

I have done a lot of research on the Alabama Waterdog (Necturus alabamensis) and my conclusion is that N. alabamensis is acually 2 species: N. alabamensis and N. cf species beyeri or Eastern Gulf Coast Waterdog. The latter being the only Necturus sp. being found in Florida.

On the CC species page under N. alabamensis there are 3 correct adult and 1 correct larvae photos. The last (taken by Troy Hibbits in 2004) is actually N. cf species beyeri. I know this for two main reasons. 1 being that it is spotted and N. alabamensis which is usually striped is not. The other reason being that when I looked at the thread where Troy origanally posted his pictures he said it was taken in Florida where N. alabamensis is not found.

So in conclusion I believe that this picture is under the wrong page on CC. I just wanted to put this observation out there.

 

[richard]

good eye!

 

[ryan]

Thanks, I don't know if anyone will agree with me because the idea is not very popular.

 

[cameron]

Hmmmm... I'm not sure.

 

[jennifer]

Ryan, can you post the link for Troy's post with his photos?

 

[ryan]

Here it is, the Waterdog is the last picture. http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/31846.html

 

[abrahm]

Ryan, what are your sources for this? I'm curious to know where you got your taxonomic information from. Can you cite the journals or texts that you found the information in?

 

[ryan]

A lot of the info came from the book: Guide And Reference to the Amphibians of Eastern And Central North America (North of Mexico)by R. D. Bartlett and Patricia Pope Bartlett. Some info rather out to date info came from Salamanders of the U.S. and Canada by Petranka. Lastly my own personal observations. If you want to know in more detail about my observations i'll post. A good site with a wealth of info is http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/index.htm

here is one of the references that this the whole argument is based on : Bart et al. (1995) determined that the name N. ALABAMENSIS applies only to the waterdog in the upper Black Warrior River drainage. For years, the name had been mistakenly applied to a more common species of waterdog that occurs in the lower coastal plain. Further taxonomic revisions involving this species are likely (Petranka 1998). See Bart et al. (1997) for an account of the nomenclatural history of this and related species.

I understand this is from 1995 but this isn't the only info. For it does not describe the difference of color between the black warrior river and lower Alabama/Florida

(Message edited by I_love_necturus on March 08, 2007)

(Message edited by I_love_necturus on March 08, 2007)

 

[jennifer]

Doggone waterdogs! The ranges and taxonomy are not entirely resolved. The preponderance of evidence is that you are right, Ryan - N. alabamensis does not occur in Florida. There are some references (Audubon field guide, Florida Museum of Natural History website, and some of the material on AmphibiaWeb) that say it does, but I think they may be outdated, or based on a different taxonomy. The material on globalamphibians.org, CNAH and the range map on AmphibiaWeb show N. alabamensis with a restricted distribution only in north/central Alabama, and I believe that is the current consensus. Actually, the maps on AmphibiaWeb don't show ANY Necturus present in Florida.

Since you live in Rhode Island, I'm a bit skeptical of your "personal observations" about the animals. However, I do see that you've researched this in books and online, and the photo shouldn't be where it is. I'll remove it for now, and I'll try to contact Troy to see if he can clarify where he found the animal and how he ID'ed it.

Thanks Ryan.

 

[ryan]

No problemo. I'm glad to see that people looked into this for me.

When I meant personal observations I meant pictures with collection localities (I would never rely on any picture without the collection localities)

 

[troy]

What you are running into on this issue is simply nothing more than taxonomy in flux. Basically, until they are formally recognized as something else, the name most recently applied to Florida populations of Necturus remains N. alabamensis.

Yes, I am very much aware that the name should/will/ought to be restricted to populations in the upper Black Warrior River system, a population that is dorso-ventrally flattened and that has striped juveniles (while FL populations are more cigar-shaped and have spotted juveniles). However, calling Florida populations Necturus cf. beyeri as Bartlett did in his field guide is also inadequate, and most likely inaccurate. I have N. beyeri from Texas, and it is a very different animal than the Florida ones - much larger, with much larger spots.

What all of us Necturus afficianados are anxiously awaiting is the formal description of the Non-Black Warrior system animals as their own species . . . basically we're waiting on Paul Moler (of Florida State U, who has been working on these salamanders, along with Siren, for more than a decade). I've heard the name Necturus lodingi applied to these populations in an informal sense, but haven't investigated that name to see if its an older name being re-applied to these populations or a new name that hasn't yet been officially described. Because N. lodingi hasn't yet been applied to these salamanders formally, it would be inappropriate to use that name too.

At any rate, there's nothing wrong with calling those salamanders from Florida N. alabamensis until they are officially described as something else . . . in fact, despite of how Dick Bartlett treated them in his book, this remains the most appropriate name for them (even though we know that the name should be changed).

By the way, I minnow trapped 4 adults of these salamanders last week . . .

Troy


(Message edited by troy_h on March 21, 2007)

 

[ryan]

Hey Troy do you have any pictures of the Necturus species that you could post? I would greatly appreciate this because as you may know I'm a Necturus fanatic.

I also believe and hope that the species of Necturus in the Florida/Southern Alabama are gets name Necturus lodingi.

 

[jennifer]

Thank you for the clarification, Troy

 

[troy]

Here are a couple of the Florida "alabamensis" specimens. I need to pester my N. beyeri out of hiding to give some comparison shots. Since today I'm home from work (the Nueces River was flooded, and I couldn't get across this morning to get to work).

Anyway, here are a couple more Florida WaterDogs

Troy

 

[troy]

A habitat shot

They were caught in standard minnow traps on the leaf bed in the lower part of the photo

Troy

 

[ryan]

Those were great Troy. I still plan on calling the N. cf. spieces beyeri though untill all this gets sorted out. Be sure to let me know once some decisions are made on the genus.

The more cigar shape of the body is very obvious in these photos, this species is so much different from N. alabamensis that I don't see how it could possibly be classified as N. alabamensis.
Pictures of the N. beyeri would be great if you get a chance.

 

[ryan]

I might get a Necturus cf. species beyeri some time next week, Troy do you have any information on keeping them?