Inbreeding newts?

Getting a big gene pool is great and all, but mixing animals from different locales can also mess up the genetic 'authenticity'.

Take N. s. strauchii for example; the closer the population is to the N. s. barani, the fewer spots the animals have. So if you mix animals from a 'close' and 'far' population, even though they are both N. s. s, these populations will never naturally meet eachother so if you mix them in captivity you can 'mess up' the gene pool more then you support it. You might have genetically diverse animals, but those animals do not reflect the natural phenotype and even genotype that the wild ones have.
If you have animals with locality, this can be bypassed. If you mix for example F3 animals from a certain area with a wild caught animal from the same area, that should be fine.
Looking at it from that point of view, are the animals we have in captivity really 'pure'? If you have a Cynops orientalis for example, and want to expand your breeding group (or introduce fresh genes), you get animals from another breeder whose animals can be from a population that naturally don't mix due to distance with your group.

What I'm trying to say is, that without exact locales, getting a group to be as accurate to the wild as possible is pretty much impossible.
Looking at it from that perspective, inbreeding guarantees the accurate gene pool more then mixing it with other animals.
This is even more true for kaiseri etc. where people that bought w/c animals most likely have animals from the same region.

That’s a very good point, Danny. With respect to kaiseri the imports of 1995 were intolerant of low temperatures, below 17C, whereas kaiseri from more recent imports appear to be far more tolerant of low temperature and can be maintained below 10C during the winter without problems. These differences might suggest populations have adapted to different altitudes. I doubt many specimens exist in captivity from the early collections so it’s probably a moot point but it demonstrates caution should be used when trying to “improve” bloodlines.

Indeed, caution and INFORMATION!
The problem of locality data is a big one. I´m a big proponent of maintaining locality integrity but it´s really difficult. The vast majority of animals in the hobby come from commercial imports which of course almost never provide any info whatsoever, let alone reliable locality data. To me, the rare bloodlines that do have that kind of information behind them are as valuable as gold.
The problem is that people just want to breed their animals. There´s this strange urge to breed your animals no matter what. What an awful thing xD
I think discussions like this promote a more intelligent and responsible kind of breeding and that´s why i think they are definitely worth while.

In the case of H.orientalis, i don´t think that´s likely to be a problem. It seems that it´s a pretty uniform species with no apparent significant differences between imports, at least in general. I see your point, though, and it troubles me. However, small phenotypical differences are not necessaarily a problem as there is variation inside every population. Whenever a species has recognized subspecies, mixing them is obviously stupid and reckless. But when a group of populations are known to be genetically close and undistinctive, i wouldn´t worry all that much. The problem lies, of course, in having that kind of information.

The issue of having locality data is among the most relevant to me, thank you for bringing it up, Damien. I wish the hobby would change into a new trend of asking for that kind of information and valuing it as it deserves.

I received 6 Kaiseri (two shipments of 3) from a certain Zoos breeding program. Unfortunately I wasn't able to obtain locality data, but I was assured I should have varied bloodlines as their Kaiseri were obtained from multiple sources and then bred. I got two different age groups. I'm in contact with the program now but highly doubt I'll be receiving locality data. At least I have a bunch of random Kaiseri bloodlines (at least two for sure).

but here is the irony: if you don't want to mix across localities, but instead want to breed only animals from the same place, you'll most likely be breeding closely related individuals. Most natural populations are quite small, and I'll be you anything that animals in isolated wild populations are already highly inbred in nature anyways...

so I doubt you can have it both ways: you either have to mix across localities, or you get inbreeding

Yes, but you simply can´t ignore the fact that those are wild populations subjected to selective pressures that keep the population genetics in check. The problem in captivity is the lack of such pressures.
I wouldn´t want to give the appearance that i worry hugely about inbreeding and inbreeding alone. I think inbreeding is an issue that like any other should be addressed and personally i think should be reduced when possible, but i´m much more worried about not mixing localities and providing some degree of possitive selection to our captive offspring. Caudates tolerate inbreeding, we know that. I simply advocate a more responsible breeding system where not absolutely anything goes, but some benefitial limitations are applied, like for example some degree of competition or selection in offspring, reduced inbreeding and locality coherence, of course, all when possible.

There are no known subspecies of kaiseri...and i'm not saying there are not any, but it seems no matter where in nature they have been found they at least look about the same. The 2 strauchi subspecies are clearly different.

My guess is for a pair: 2 different bloodlines...trying to come from populations that are at least close. Then again there are only 4 or so streams they live in...I think.

In conclusion some inbreeding is okay, but different bloodlines from different localities can be good too.

Far be it from me to argue with any of you with caudate genetics.

I don't think natural selection is boring...I was just speaking from passion I guess. lol

Azhael said:

If all we did in this forum was say "oh, those newts are beautiful" what would be the point?
The way i see it, it´s of the utmost importance that we have discussions, that we share information, learn from one another´s experience, etc. Discussions like this have one goal in mind, improving the way we keep caudates in captivity.
You may find comentaries about natural selection boring or irrelevant, but i don´t. And i certainly was not debating evolution xD I think possitive selection is a key point in long term viability of captive populations and discussing how it compares to natural selection is very relevant the way i see it.
Just because i haven´t participated in a particular thread it doesn´t mean i don´t apreciate this species. I happen to think that the whole genus is fascinating in every way, hell, the entire order is! As Molch says, we are caudate freaks, we love them, dream about them, worry about them, it´s a fricking obsession xD
We do all agree that Neurergus are brilliant, and we do have disagreements on their captive care, that´s why discussions are so important!!

The issue of helping the species through captive breeding is complicated. Like Mark commented, reintroductions are literally the very last resort. If reintroductions are necessary it´s because everything else has failed misserably. The best strategy is habitat conservation. If there´s no good habitat, then releasing animals is worthless. I used to have this idea of "working with the species" too, thinking that i could actually do something from home by breeding them, but i soon found out just how naive that was. However as i commented earlier, the good thing about what we do is that stablishing captive populations reduces wild collections which means less pressure on them, plus promoting education and awareness. That to me has a conservational value, but that´s about it.... If anyone really, really wants to help a particular species, help conserve their habitats, that´s real help!


Nowicki, we all know that a single generation of inbreeding in caudates is nothing....even 6-7 generations of direct endogamy have produced healthy offspring. The issue with caudates is long term effects. We are very much aware that short term effects are minimal if they exist at all.
In the wild, caudates also get eaten, does that mean we should let a predator have a little party in our tanks every once in a while too? The goal is not mimicking nature, i think that´s been made clear. The goal is learning how to manage captive populations better, because frankly we can do better.
I´d also like to say that justifying activities that affect the quality of life of our animals just because of curiosity is simply wrong. I´m an extremely curious person (it´ll probably kill me some day) but my priority is the well being of my animals, period.

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It seems this discusion is trying to agree on how to relativly maintain a salamanders naturally evolving genome. But I am having a hard time understanding what the ideal form of genetic diversity is? I know what your trying to acomplish but just what defines that? No matter what the evolution of captive salamanders is going to reflect how we raise them, so anyway you look at it captive breeding is a means of controling the course of change. What are we trying to allow them to change into? We need the environment as some sort of guidline right, so how do we respond to a society that continues to break salamanders into "isolated popuations". Does this make sense its hard for me to explain and I'm getting a little confused. I don't mean to seem anoying as none of my previous posts really held up to the discusion, but I really do want to learn more.

Hello.
I stumbled upon this very interesting thread. Thanks to everyone for the interesting opinions and recommendations! A few years ago I was in dire need of such information and opened a new topic on the matter, but I didn't know exactly how to phrase it. It is about Inbreeding due to impasse (The eggs not develop into embryos (Cynops orientalis)). I have uploaded pictures but not getting any response...
In Bulgaria it is very difficult to find hold of newts. They are not even on the market, they are rarely found in nature. Everywhere in Europe, taking amphibians from the wild is illegal. Release of pets into the wild, especially invasive species is also prosecuted by law. There were newts in stores more than 10 years ago. Today, only the Mexican Ambystoma and the Spanish Crested Newt can be found from a private seller. I can't buy a small beautiful breed suitable for an aquarium anywhere (such as Notophthalmus viridescens, Triturus pygmaeus or Neurergus kaiseri). 10 years ago I accidentally managed to buy Cynops orientalis - EFT, the last 2 pcs. remained available in the store, the others had escaped. There was no information on their gender or whether they were family related. Luckily for me, after a while they gave birth. New larvae hatched for three consecutive years. Then the mother died. I was left with a father with 4 females (his daughters). Then the eggs laid by the daughters began not to develop into embryos and turned cloudy. For three years, not a single larva hatched from the daughters. And in recent years, Chinese newts have stopped laying eggs altogether. I didn't know where the reason was, I restarted the aquarium several times and what not. There are no new eggs in the last 3 years. I also don't know what the reproductive age is for this species. I created a new forum thread and uploaded pictures (The eggs not develop into embryos (Cynops orientalis). It's still not entirely clear to me where the reason for the lack of new generations - either the conditions or due to inbreeding. We have almost no information on keeping newts in an aquarium. Years ago I made a makeshift site with basic advice. From my point of view, there are inbreeding problems with Chinese Fire-bellied Newts. Probably the main bone of contention on the subject is what can be done in the absence of genetic diversity.
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Здравейте.
Случайно попаднах на тази много интересна тема. Благодаря на всички за интаресните мнения и препоръки! Преди няколко години имах остра нужда от подобна информация и отворих нова тема по въпроса, но не знаех точно как да я формулирам. Става дума за Инбридинг поради безизходица (The eggs not develop into embryos (Cynops orientalis)). Качих снимки, но не получава нито един отговор ...
В България е много трудно да да се сдобиеш с тритони. Няма ги нито на пазара, рядко се срещат и в природата. Навсякъде в Европа улавянето на амфибии от природата е незаконно. Освобождаване на домашни любимци в природата, особено на инвазивни видове също се преследва от закона. В магазините е имало тритони преди повече от 10 години. Днес могат да се намерят от частен продавач само Мексиканска амбистома и Испански Ребрест тритон. Отникъде не мога да си купя дребна красива порода, подходяща за аквариум, ( като Notophthalmus viridescens, Triturus pygmaeus или Neurergus kaiseri ). Преди 10 години случайно успях да си купя Cynops orientalis - EFT, последните 2 бр. останали налични в магазина, другите били избягали. Нямаше никаква информация от какъв пол са и дали имат родствена връзка. За мой късмет след време те дадоха поколение. Три последователни години се излюпваха нови ларви. След това майката умря. Остана ми баща с 4 женски (негови дъщери). Тогава яйцата снесени от дъщерите, започнаха да не се развиват в ембриони и помътняваха. Три години от дъщерите не се излюпи нито една ларва. А през последните години китайските тритони изобщо спряха да снасят яйца. Аз не знаех къде е причината, няколко пъти правих рестарт на аквариума и какво ли не. Нови яйца през последните 3 - 4 години няма. Не знам и каква е детеродната възраст за този вид. Създадох нова тема във форума и качих снимки (The eggs not develop into embryos /Cynops orientalis/. За мен все още не е напълно ясно къде е причината за липсана на нови поколения - дали в условията или поради инбридинг. У нас почти липсва информация за отглеждане на тритони в аквариум. Преди години направих импровизиран сайт със съвети от първа необходимост. От моята гледна точка, има проблеми с инбридинг при Китайски огненокоремест тритон. Вероятно основният върос по темата е какво може да се направи при липса на генетично разнообразие.

It seems unlikely that Cynops orientalis is highly inbred. Until recently it was almost never bred in captivity and essentially all specimens were wild caught. Are you saying that none of the eggs produced by the daughters of the original pair have ever produced viable eggs? Is the father the only male?

In continuation of the topic I can add. In one year, the entire generation of Fire-bellied Chinese newts hatched with pure bright yellow bellies. Absolutely all of them appeared the same as yolks. Many sites mention that the color of the abdomens of Cynops Orientalis depends largely on the food and its carotene content, so the coloration of the abdomens varies from bright red to orange. Each new generation in my aquarium is fed the same way with the same food, each successive year. So the distinct yellow color quite surprised me. First time I've seen something like this. Parents with bright red bellies produced children with yellow bellies. Then the thought of creating a selection of Chinese yellow-bellied newts occurred to me. But as I mentioned in my previous post, from next year there was a problem with the eggs of the new generations, which I think is due to inbreeding...

frank beard said:

Изглежда малко вероятно Cynops orientalis да е силно инбриден. Доскоро почти никога не се отглеждаше в плен и по същество всички екземпляри бяха уловени в дивата природа. Искате да кажете, че нито една от яйцеклетките, произведени от дъщерите на оригиналната двойка, никога не е дала жизнеспособни яйцеклетки? Бащата единствен мъж ли е?

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Yes. The father is the only male in the aquarium. The sites say that it is good to keep one male with several female newts. So there will be no fights in the aquarium. European and Russian sites claim that Cynops orientalis is the most commonly bred nature in aquarium conditions and for many years generations have been accustomed to breeding in captivity.

For three years we had healthy generations. Then after the death of the mother for 3 years, not a single egg developed into an embryo and all the eggs died.
There has not been a single new egg in the last 3-4 years.

I guess my statement maybe was too broad. For many years orientalis was exported by the millions and was a cheap and "disposable" pet in pet stores.

There is a possibility that the mother and father were two different species and that this is a case of hybrid breakdown.

frank beard said:

I guess my statement maybe was too broad. For many years orientalis was exported by the millions and was a cheap and "disposable" pet in pet stores.

There is a possibility that the mother and father were two different species and that this is a case of hybrid breakdown.

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As for the Cynops you are talking about, I think I, a Chinese, can say something. In the past, I didn't know how to"Go Abroad". Cases of oriental and other Cynops crossing are extremely rare, infinitely close to zero, and there may have been one or two cases where they have successfully crossed with blue tails, but the Cubs have all died, and this happened many years ago. So the possibility of hybridization can be ruled out. So the problem with the one above should not be the result of hybridization. Perhaps it has something to do with incorrect breeding practices. In China, it's a very easy species to breed. Almost anyone can do it. I've bred hundreds of them, but I lost them all due to lack of patience. At present, the Chinese people are actively getting rid of wild individuals and trying to breed offspring. They have already had some offspring first or second generation and are breeding some variant individuals. As for this species, it is not hard to guess that there are many different manifestations of it, but there are few subspecies, and it is thought that there may be only two, others behave differently, but not to the extent of subspecies, and should be referred to as"Geotypes". I hope my explanation can help you.