Fire belly species?

I have had a careful look at the species guides, and I'm still having trouble identifying what species of fire-belly our pair are.

I'm reasonably sure the male (Pyro) is a japanese, because of the pointed tail, prominent glands, and the fact that he is currently grey with dark spots (although he didn't at the time the pictures were taken).
As for Nora, she has the elongated toes, pointed tail and prominent glands of a japanese, but still somehow looks like a chinese.
We don't know the source of these newts, as the friend we bought them from said they had a few owners before he got them.

I was wondering if anyone could clear up this confusion

Thanks in advance

I think they are both C. pyrrhogaster. What are the sizes (total length) of both newts?

I will have to go and measure them this afternoon to be sure.
Until I have the exact sizes:

Nora is the same size as our female H. orientalis, but slimmer.
Pyro is a bit shorter and generally smaller proportioned (including slimmer) than our 2 male H. orientalis.

Hope this helps until I can get them measured.

With their rough skin and pointed tails I would say they both are C. pyrrhogaster.

I have to disagree, they look very much like Hypselotriton orientalis to me. The cloacal coloration is particularly typical. The pointed tail is not necessarily a sign that they are pyrrhogaster. Many H.orientalis females have pointed tails, specially if on the thin side like those animals. The rough skin is perfectly possible in animals that are not fully adapted to an aquatic life.

The head is elongated... perhaps it's H. fudingensis?

I would rule out H. orientalis, telling from the shape of the head. I'd have said pyrrhogaster though I dont havy any personal experiences with those. Where can I find a characterization of fudengensis, Janusz?

@Yahilles: Do you have any information on H. fudingensis? I haven't heard of this one before.

Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to measure them yet. I will do when I get the chance to.

Is it possible for H. orientalis males to turn grey with black spots? I thought that was just C. pyrrhogaster.

Thanks

I am inclined to think they are H.orientalis as well. They often have moderately pointed tails, and the images don't show quite enough of the right details [including the tail in full profile and the lateral view of the face and neck].

They're not H.fudingensis though - far too much black on the undersides and too dark dorsally, plus lacking all of the markings which are common [but not exclusive to] H.fudingensis. One feature that H.orientalis USUALLY has, which is lacking in other species, is a black line crossing the throat.

Edit - double-checking, the last feature appears to be absent in both of these, which doesn't help. The partial black collars at the bases of the limbs are present in both, which is again not unique, but fits well with H.orientalis.

Look also for a protruding gland between the shoulder and jaw - if present, it's Cynops; if absent, it's Hypselotriton.

I'll try to get close-ups of them at different angles at some point, but it may be a few days until then.

I tried to post last night, but for some reason it hasn't gone up:
Is it possible for H. orientalis to turn grey with black spots? I believed that this was the breeding colours for C. pyrrhogaster?

I'll have a look at them both closely and see if I can find any sign of the glands

They're not H.fudingensis though - far too much black on the undersides and too dark dorsally, plus lacking all of the markings which are common [but not exclusive to] H.fudingensis. One feature that H.orientalis USUALLY has, which is lacking in other species, is a black line crossing the throat.

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How can you tell how dark they are, especially when they're wet but out of water? Everything looks darker that way. Not to mention the fact of color changing in newts, due to background colors or temperature.
You always admit about Pachytriton being soo variable that you can't distinguish species by morphology, but now you try to say every H. fudingensis has to look exactly like in a, very young, description paper? Just take a look how variable normal orientalis are. These have some unusual proportions and that's why i suspect they might be fudingensis.

But you are using the same argument to say that they are not orientalis just because they look slightly different than the typical orientalis. They don´t fit the characteristics of fudingensis to a larger degree that they don´t "fit" orientalis characteristics. It´s much more justified to say they are unusual orientalis than to propose they are fudingensis, i think.
The brownish coloration of the second animal while not typical, is not something new in orientalis. The issue with proportions i assume is with the first animal and personally i think it´s a consequence of the animal being thin, although the first animal is more dubious.

Angie, grey coloration can occur in orientalis, as well as a black dotted pattern, but i haven´t heard of both at the same time. When black spots appear usually the background coloration is brown. This appears to be a normal polymorphism in the species as black-dotted, brown animals are produced by normal looking adults.
Do you have any pictures of your animal displaying the spotted, grey coloration?

Unfortunately, the camera doesn't pick up the grey and spotty colouration. I may try to get a picture of nora stood next to pyro underwater at some point for comparison purposes

Azhael said:

But you are using the same argument to say that they are not orientalis just because they look slightly different than the typical orientalis.

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The difference is how many orientalis we've ever seen (both alive and on photos) and how many fudingensis we've ever seen.