Raising Neurergus kaiseri

Last year Neurergus kaiseri were bred by a number of keepers and there are quite a few people who frequent this forum raising offspring. I thought it would be good to have a thread where people could share their experiences.

Alan Cann kindly let me be the custodian of a group of his N.kaiseri offspring in October last year. The setup I’m keeping them in is a plastic tub (40cm x 30cm) with a top soil substrate. Tree bark hides are stacked on top of each other to a height of ~20cm and the only other furnishing is a small, shallow water dish. The newts spend the day under the lower hides and at night will forage for food amongst upper hides and open spaces. They have a preference for perching high and are very active soon after lights out. The water dish is used frequently and I often see one taking a quick soak. In general the enclosure is on the dry side – I have never misted the enclosure and the soil is only slightly damp. At this time of the year they are kept at a fairly constant 15-16 degrees C indoors. They are very gregarious and will often be huddled together under hides. More often than not all the animals can be found in the same hide. They are fed small earth worms, lesser wax worms, large fruit flies, squat maggots, tropical woodlice and occasionally crickets of appropriate size. They have very good appetites and are accomplished predators, sometime chasing prey at speed (they can really move when they want to). In the few months I’ve had them they’ve doubled in size. Without wanting to tempt fate I would hazard to say they are one of the least demanding and easiest species of newt I have raised. I had visions of delicate, tricky newts to match the horror stories of wc adults. On the contrary they seem very robust and hardy. I check on them once a week and I’m always surprised at how much they’ve grown. Long may it continue.

It would be interesting to know the experiences of other keepers. If you haven’t done so already you can (and should) register your newts on the N.kaiseri stud book run by Jochen Kopetsch. I won’t post his email address here – If you want it PM me.

Hi Mark,

I keep my in this set up:

The temperature is at 17 - 18 °C (have had in the last months: max. 21°C, min 13°C).
They very seldom go on land, and only short time.

The like the holes, but also often are seen outside.

And see here:
http://www.livingunderworld.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7924&size=big&sort=1&cat=771

Very good eaters - earthworms, red mosquito larvae, tubifex, Enchytrea ...
http://www.livingunderworld.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7864&size=big&sort=1&cat=771

My gallery al livingunderworld:
http://www.livingunderworld.org/photos/showgallery.php?cat=771

My description on www.salamanderseiten.de (in German):
http://de.geocities.com/neurergus_kaiseri/index.htm

Paul

Thanks Paul. At what size or age did your's go aquatic?

Brilliant! It´s a pleasure to see this species that was extremely rare and tricky is resulting into hardy and fast growing CB animals. Maybe in a few years they´ll become more common and available for ppl like me. For now, it´s heartwarming to see that there seems not to be more need for wc animals.
Btw...congrats everyone who´s succeding with these, great job.

My CB group is going very well too, growing and eating at a steady rate. They have grown over a cm in 2 months. Will post details shortly!

I too was lucky enough to get a group from Alan Cann last year.
Mine are kept in a terrestrail tank set up almost the same as Marks plastic tub.
Substrate is composted bark, one end has lots of corkbark where the newts spend almost all of there time huddled together.
The other damper end of the tank has a shallow water bowl, and live moss, this end is lightly misted once a week.
Food items are mainly small crickets,live bloodworm offered on damp kitchen paper, waxmoth larvae, tropical woodlice, and chopped earthworm.
Temperatures in my newt room at this time of year hover between 12-16c
I have never yet seen them eat, but they are growing at an almost alarming rate, so I know they are eating well.

Mark said:

At what size or age did your's go aquatic?

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They are CB from 07; totale length 7,5 to less more than 9 cm and did not see any terrestrial phase!
I got them in October 07!

Paul

I'm still of the opinion that keeping this species permanently aquatic is so different to their natural environment that it is not good for them in the long run. I'm also agreeably surprised at how fast the terrestrial juveniles grow, due as Mark has said, to their appetites (quite different from other caudates I've raised terrestrially where aquatic animals do much better). Again, I believe this reflects their natural environment.

And the good news is:
http://frogroom-podcast.blogspot.com/2008/01/another-neurergus-kaiseri-breeding.html

Congratulations!!!! Those are indeed great news!

Alan, what is the water temp in your aquarium, and what is your photoperiod? Do you think they still feed while in a dormant state? I have had mine in a tupperware container in the fridge for about a month now along with some wood lice. The average temp has been around 7 C. I plan on taking them out of the fridge in mid february and placing them in an aquarium in the garage where it should be between 10-15 C. I have had good success in the past with breeding triturus, and notos, but this is my first attempt at neurergus.

Raising neurergus kaiseri

Although, I'm only a new boy, I caved in to the temptation to find some CB 07 N. kaiseri at the end of last year and I've been surprised at the growth rate, despite the fact that mine won't touch earthworms. They have been eating bloodworm served on wet paper, tropical woodlice (for the first time tonight confused flour beetle larvae), D.hydei, D. melanogaster, lesser waxmoths and waxworms. I've offered the earthworms chopped, so perhaps I should try smaller, uncut worms.

I have four in a 60cm glass tank with a partly covered mesh top. Light is reduced by cork tile fixed to the back and sides of the tank. After several weeks at low temps I raised it to 12C and their appetites increased dramatically.

If I sit still and quietly with the door open a touch to provide light, they skitter around the tank like lizards rather than newts. One third of the substrate is composted bark and mixed dried leaves with stacked cork bark above. The other two thirds comprise damp kitchen paper with a 20cms high piece of karstic limestone. Smaller pieces of limestone are dotted around the tank and there is a water bowl which they appear to use when I'm not looking. Like Mark's, they sleep together curled in a dried leaf like kittens.

At first, I was going to make their hide from piled up limestone as it matched their natural habitat, but switched to cork bark after Alan Cann's example on his website. The limestone seems to attract them, though, if only as an adventure playground. I don't spray the cork bark end, but give the limestone end a good spray every other evening before lights out.

My only questions are what age generally do they reach sexual maturity and how do you know it's time to switch them to water?

I received my group of 5 juvenile N. kaiseri from Alan Cann in October. I keep them in a curver box with a very fine mesh lid, a reasonably moist mixture of mainly cocopeat and turf as a substrate. I've never misted it, and the substrate together with the fine mesh lid seems to keep it just moist enough. I've noticed some organisms such as small rainworms, enchytrae, slow moving springtails and tropical woodlice seem to maintain in and around the substrate. I also have 2 big pieces of dry corkbark stacked on top of each other, to copy the way Alan kept them. The waterdish is used very often, which is noticable because of the dirt that gets in the dish after every night (I just cleaned the dish when I took the photo below).

In addition to the way Alan kept them, I added a piece of brick with holes in it, and this seems to be their all-time favorite place where they huddle in together during the day. Sometimes I find a couple of them between or under the corkbark. The temperatures are between 15-20 degrees celcius (59-68 fahrenheit). Mine grow very fast too, though they haven't doubled their size as Marks did. Mine have grown about 1 to 2 cm in these last months, which is still very fast.

I've noticed they accept a wide variety of foods including: Small crickets, fruitflies, bean beetles, lesser waxmoth larvae, tropical woodlice, small rainworms, tubifex, bloodworms, firebrats and enchytrae. They also accept slow moving foods such as a lesser waxmoth larvae when holding one in front of the stone where they are hiding in during the daytime, so, they are shy...but they can not reject a tasty larvae when held in front of their 'cave'.

Another interesting thing I've noticed is that their pattern is starting to change. The dots on their back seem to start melting together with the dorsal line, thus creating the well known zig-zag line seen in adults (and some other juvenile groups).

cg said:

Alan, what is the water temp in your aquarium, and what is your photoperiod? Do you think they still feed while in a dormant state? I have had mine in a tupperware container in the fridge for about a month now along with some wood lice. The average temp has been around 7 C. I plan on taking them out of the fridge in mid february and placing them in an aquarium in the garage where it should be between 10-15 C. I have had good success in the past with breeding triturus, and notos, but this is my first attempt at neurergus.

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Water temperature is around 20C, photoperiod 13 hours. Mine still feed in the resting phase as long as the temperature is above freezing. I'm not convinced that the winter temperatures need to go as low as I've been taking them, although it seems to work, so if they breed successfully again this year, next year I plan to try resting them at 10-15C for 10-12 weeks with reduced illumination.

platinum said:

My only questions are what age generally do they reach sexual maturity and how do you know it's time to switch them to water?

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I don't know, but at the present growth rate, I suspect they may be ready in their second year (if they have reached adult size). After a winter resting period, introduce them to a semi-aquatic setup with a small powerhead to provide a gentle current (I was unsuccessful in breeding them in static water) and if they're ready, they will enter the water, begin courting and lay eggsa after some weeks. If after a few months there has been no breeding, dry them off and try again the following year.

I`ve got two. The setup is very simple : just plastic tube top soil and pieces of moss. Temp. is 14 - 16 °C. I feed them chopped earth worms and small crickets. I`m also surprised by their fast growing and perhaps robustness but their considerable timidity makes not as atractive as they look in my opinion.

Hi Alan,
congrats to your breeding success!

ajc said:

I'm still of the opinion that keeping this species permanently aquatic is so different to their natural environment that it is not good for them in the long run.

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Are we real sure, that most of them in nature have a terrestrial phase?
If it is so, why don't my go on land?
They easy can go there each time, it is not to small, different parts (dry and wet), holes ...

Paul

Sorry to jump into this discussion but i´m quite interested on this.
I think i recall reading that the terrestrial phase was mainly conditioned by the fact that natural water bodies dry out or become suboptimal. Also i might have imagined this but i think there´s some reference of adults staying aquatic when the possibility is avaible, is this right?
I´m just a noob with no experience in this matter...but i think Alan might have a point...our goal is to provide the best care possible to our animals...that includes mimicking their natural environment to some extent. I´m not sure though the full imitation of the natural conditions is necessary...I mean..we all keep our animals in conditions that are not exactly as those ocurring on their natural habits...and it doesn´t seem to affect the animals.
This case might be different specially because it´s about the juveniles...and different conditions during development may have different results...
So the thing is....has anyone ever experienced any adverse result by raising other species in a different way than the naturally ocurring one?(Life sortening, sudden deaths...etc)

paul_b said:

Hi Alan,
congrats to your breeding success!
Are we real sure, that most of them in nature have a terrestrial phase?
If it is so, why don't my go on land?
They easy can go there each time, it is not to small, different parts (dry and wet), holes ...

Click to expand...

Thanks Paul.
My understanding is that over most of their natural range they have no choice about the terrestrial phase as the watercourses dry up!
If they choose to remain aquatic rather than terrestrial in captivity, that's still not necessarily the best thing for them. I'm sure they would also choose to massively overeat if we let them!
Interestingly last year after spawning, my pair started to spend far more time on land, although they still visited the water sometimes, and I took that as signal it was time to remove them to a terrestrial setup with a waterdish (which they use regularly, even during the low temperature resting period.

I don't know anything about Neurergus, but I find this discussion really interesting. I see that in many other cases, species who in the wild go through terrestrial periods can be kept fully aquatic without harm to them. When I read all the Triturus species caresheets on caudata culture, it said that they could be kept in environments that either mimicked their natural aquatic/terrestrial cycle, or could be kept aquatic all year round. I feel like the same thing can be said for cynops as well. Perhaps Neurergus are the same way but no one really knows yet because they are so rare and new to the hobby. Perhaps only wild caught individuals are really finicky because they have spent their lives in a specific habitat, but CB newts have been raised artificially from the beginning and may be more accepting of artificial environments. I'm just wondering this, I have no scientific knowledge to back that up and have no experience with Neurergus. So don't get upset with me. I know there are huge differences between Neurergus, Cynops, and Triturus.

Hi Patrick.

Cynops are the most aquatic of the genera you mention. They're in a different league to nearly all species in the other 2 genera.